Ogre...Kickstarter...you in?

Asking for money UP FRONT from customers to buy a VAPORWARE product is NOT how professional business is conducted. A professional business doesn't ask for money- and take it- to "see" if doing something is viable. They take a risk, market, and hopefully provide a desirable product. I completely agree that business integrity DOES NOT include effectively asking the customer to foot the bill in advance for a product, and claiming that "backing" a project is in any way an investment is borderline fraud.

There are, believe it or not, certain kinds of projects where Kickstarter makes sense. But consumer products like this made by professional publishers are NOT those projects.

I completely agree with Wadenels.

People need to quit getting excited about buying a new board game and start thinking about what they're actually doing by buying these Kickstarter projects in advance of them being sourced, manufactured, or even possibly fully developed.

Michael Barnes wrote: If I jimmy up some counter sheets and post a rulebook online, maybe take out an ad or two, would you give me $20,000 to print Milch und Gherkin?

No. I haven't backed a KS product yet and I'm fairly certain that Milch und Gherkin wouldn't be the first one. Ogre may have that honer.

Michael Barnes wrote: People need to quit getting excited about buying a new board game and start thinking about what they're actually doing by buying these Kickstarter projects in advance of them being sourced, manufactured, or even possibly fully developed.

Yeah, but until that happens Kickstarter is the land of stupid money. It doesn't surprise me to see big publishers giving it the once over. At a minimum you get exposure.

S.

Kickstarter - proving there is a sucker born every target goal.

Michael Barnes wrote: I was ready to jump, but then I remembered my distate for Kickstarter...professionally run, operated, and managed businesses DO NOT "crowd source" their funding. They put money on the line and if they deliver a quality, saleable product then they make a profit. By putting your money up front, there's no real incentive for them to give you value for your money. Not like SJ has done that in years anyway.

This is, not to put too fine a point on it, complete horseshit.

Kickstarter is an amazing opportunity for artists and fans to take the labyrinthine, self-defeating, often corrupt 'publication and funding' bits out of the production of the things we love. I've backed five projects so far. In every single instance, the project I helped fund would not have been possible in a 'standard' creator environment. First bit of money was a band LP by a few acquaintances of mine who, despite being very talented, didn't have the money for studio time. Second, an independent film, which is in post- and looks great. And three video games, none of which would have been created in the current 'iPad game or blockbuster' video game environment.

Do all projects deserve funding? Of course not. Do people need to careful consider which projects are likely to move to completion (Kickstarter itself already has a vetting process)? Absolutely. Are there going to be failures? Sure, there will be money wasted, but hell, I waste money every year on ubstandard games movies etc, and I'm fairly stringent in my selection process (try to play beforehand, read multiple reviews, etc). At least this way I'm directly funding motivated artists. It's motivating, it's effective economics, and it's pure awesomesauce.

Finally, just because a business doesn't 100% fund their own projects does not mean, as you claim, that they have 'nothing on the line'. Reputation has always mattered in business, and that's true now more than ever. What do you think happens to Brian Fargo and his company if they don't produce a stellar Wasteland 2, after he's spent the last month pissing off publishers very publically? Something this side of insolvency? What about Hairebrained Schemes LLC and Shadowrun (neither company, by the way, able to fund either project)? Do think, perhaps, that (especially as Kickstarters tend to be much more proactive and educated about their projects) certain companies will accrue positive reputations, some less so, and if their only sources of funding comes directly from public will, that might affect the future of their companies? Existential threats sound like 'having something to lose' to me.

All this, and we haven't even spoken about the most interesting crowd-funded projects: projects that are charitable or human interest. The anti-Kickstarter crap on here and other geek forums is astounding.

TL/DR: Every issue listed in this thread re: Kickstarter is present in normal commerce as well. KS allows consumers to directly fund artists, and projects, they are excited by, projects that in many cases would never see the light of day otherwise. Use your brain, practice due diligence, then get involved.

Me? I have no intention of funding SJG, because the project doesn't meet my personal criteria. But if other people want their Ogre, all the power to them. Kickstart away, brothers.

TheDukester wrote:

ehanuise wrote: ... proper, well established publishers should not have to use KS.

This is such horseshit.

Those publishers are also in business. And businesses — successful ones, anyway — are always on the lookout for new revenue streams and opportunities to reach new and/or broader audiences. Kickstarter is nothing more than a (potential) tool to make that happen. "Proper" has absolutely fuck-all to do with anything.

Even so. Does it make sense to give up 10% of your cash just to 'be on KS' ?

10% seems steep but once you factor in logistics and exposure it is definitely worth it. Even guys like Schafer or Fargo had trouble getting funding until they got to Kickstarter. They are the big names in the industry and they couldn't get publishers to spend a lousy couple of millions for their pet projects. In terms of average video game budget this is fuck all and they still weren't able to secure it. I doubt they could do that on their own just setting up pre-orders on their own website. Sure they would probably get some funding but I guess nowhere near what they got through Kickstarter.

Kickstarter's success doesn't surprise me at all. I'm just pissed I didn't think of it first... In essence it is a post-capitalism method of producing goods and all that was required is getting enough people with shared interest together from around the world. The internet does that. It's entirely possible that more and more non-essential items will be produced that way and I don't blame established publishers for jumping on the bandwagon, even though bigger companies should have the resources to simply develop their own Kickstarter-type market research tool. After a few catastrophic failures I guess we'll see safer methods of funding. What the boardgame Kickstarter programs have in common is that they actually abuse the system - Kickstarter initially wasn't meant to provide the funder with a product of actual worth, only a token of support. But, as I said, the way Kickstarter has developed isn't surprising, and maybe in the future all production of non-essential goods could be handled that way - it would certainly be more democratic than all market systems that ever existed.

This thread has reinforced my view that a good portion of hobby gamers are super-consumers. Their tastes may be niche compared to the general population, but their insatiable hunger for the new products is probably in the same class as the “trendy” women who collect purses and shoes.

"...their insatiable hunger for the new products is probably in the same class as the “trendy” women who collect purses and shoes."
Comment of the month far as I'm concerned.

Schweig! wrote: Kickstarter's success doesn't surprise me at all. I'm just pissed I didn't think of it first... In essence it is a post-capitalism method of producing goods and all that was required is getting enough people with shared interest together from around the world. The internet does that. It's entirely possible that more and more non-essential items will be produced that way and I don't blame established publishers for jumping on the bandwagon, even though bigger companies should have the resources to simply develop their own Kickstarter-type market research tool. After a few catastrophic failures I guess we'll see safer methods of funding. What the boardgame Kickstarter programs have in common is that they actually abuse the system - Kickstarter initially wasn't meant to provide the funder with a product of actual worth, only a token of support. But, as I said, the way Kickstarter has developed isn't surprising, and maybe in the future all production of non-essential goods could be handled that way - it would certainly be more democratic than all market systems that ever existed.

I was surprised more people aren't coat riding Kick Starter all the way to their OLGS to at least get the game at a discount if not the chance to wait for the game to be reviewed. But after being in the hobby for a little over a year now I've realized that many (most?) gamers are spendthrifts. At any rate I'm with you, I'm pissed i didn't think of Kick Starter first.

El Cuajinais wrote: This thread has reinforced my view that a good portion of hobby gamers are super-consumers. Their tastes may be niche compared to the general population, but their insatiable hunger for the new products is probably in the same class as the “trendy” women who collect purses and shoes.

Not sure you've ever priced those "trendy" shoes or purses since you could buy a pro-painted 5,000 point Warhammer 40K army for mid-level entries in that market. But, ultimately, I ask this: So what?

Some would argue that the portion of the hobby that's active on the web is not indicative of the hobby on the whole. I'm not so sure about that; when I look at the portion of my shelf dedicated just to Games Workshop, TSR, SPI, and Avalon Hill--the stuff from my mid-80s highschool years that I still have--I'd say it's always been a collector's hobby. The rise of the German Family Game and especially the CCG expanded the demographic but it's never been cheap nor have the bulk of its participants been satisfied with a single entry [how many different RPGs did most people play over the years? I count a dozen in my life and we were primarily wargamers. Most people who really got into that part of the hobby number can count the systems they bought into by the gross].

You don't get into this family of hobbies (including wargaming, minis, and CCGs) without a healthy amount of disposable income. Few people (that I've met, anyway) that self-identify as "gamers" are *not* collectors of some stripe--if not games, then comic books, music, movies, or some other segment of pop culture. If you had a pull-bin at your local comic book shop, buy new release videogames and movies or raid the iTunes store regularly--or drink $80/bottle whisky or $6/bottle beer [Southern Tier in my case, but I've seen enough posts around here to know we've got some serious beer/liquor snobs, which is just another sort of "collector", among some of our most "anti-megaconsumer" members, which is kind of laughable--you're just a pop-culture mega-consumer of one stripe or another since all that shit has absolutely no value or use beyond simple entertainment value.

EDIT: To get this a bit back on track, new update came today for the Ogre Kickstarter deal. Note they've *already* hit the $100k mark [which I hope also points out to ol' SJ that there really WAS pent-up demand for this product and perhaps Munchkin could have taken a back-seat for just a little bit. I do now wonder if there will be some sort of massive retro Car Wars product down the road]. Kickstarter-exclusive counters will likely drive this even further--that is the thing that pushed me into backing this for 1 set. I'm still on the fence if I want to pick up my 2nd set through KS or through an online discounter as, like Space Hulk, I really doubt we'll see any expansion material for this set down the road [beyond maybe some unmounted maps at this scale through Warehouse23]:

For $75K, we promised to add a Kickstarter exclusive counter sheet. We’re preparing an online survey to let you tell us what to put on that sheet.

For $90K, we promised four new scenarios written by Steve Jackson. He’s working on them now!

For $100K, we promised to add the Ogre blueprint poster to every copy. We will. And the box is so big, we won't even have to fold the poster.

We also promised to announce a new stretch goal. Since you are overperforming for us, we’ll overperform for you. Here are TWO new stretch goals:

$110K - We’ll post outlines for a 3-D Command Post, Laser, and Laser Tower, so your custom Ogres can have custom targets.
$130K - Four more scenarios by Steve will be posted in December. Steve is going to be busy writing, and we are all going to have some playtesting to do . .

I know of watch collectors (who I suppose could be considered mega consumers) who hunt for bargains and deals on expensive watches. And I know of watch collectors who buy whatever's hot at whatever price once it's available. There are watch collectors who buy only what they know they will wear and collectors who buy because they want to fill their watch box and move on to the next. It's a mindset, the amount of disposable income you have has little to do with it.

Note they've *already* hit the $100k mark, which I hope also points out to ol' SJ that there really WAS pent-up demand for this product and perhaps Munchkin could have taken a back-seat for just a little bit.

This is an important point here, and one that could be really beneficial to consumers/collectors/fans down the road.

Once SJG gets over the sheer trauma of being such an unprofessional company, one would hope that these Ogre figures would really get them thinking. A central criticism of SJG in the recent past is just how blinded they've become by Munchkin, and how all other potential projects, large or small, were always pushed to the side. Well, there couldn't possibly be a clearer indication that there's some demand out there for non-Munchkin items. Next up: how about some Car Wars stuff? Maybe finally release Triplanetary (I'm assumming SJG still owns the rights)? A DVD of the complete Space Gamer run? They could even dip into their more recent catalogue for things like new Frag maps/cards, updated dinos for Dino Hunt, etc. SJG has been around since 1980 and has an extensive catalogue; the possibilities are virtually without limit.

Hell, waking SJG up to the fact that there's more to life than Munchkin is worth some sort of KS pledge all by itself.

+++++

Late add: How could I forget? I also hope this clues SJG into the fact that Ogre, specifically, would be a runaway hit on iOS.

TheDukester wrote: Late add: How could I forget? I also hope this clues SJG into the fact that Ogre, specifically, would be a runaway hit on iOS.

Not just Ogre, but the full Ogre/GEV family--and I suspect he could sell them as 3 or 4 separate apps to maximize the revenue stream. The rules are still simple enough (attack, defend, move, terrain modifiers) that a basic AI wouldn't need to be much more than a basic number-cruncher [every old CRT-based wargame should be on the damn iOS IMO]. Hell, I think a ton of the old MicroBox games they had [though KungFu 2100 and Raid on Iran wouldn't exactly be "runaways"] would be great as would a "we do the book-keeping for you" string of Car Wars-related apps, particularly a "digital garage" kind of thing that rule-enforces for car building.