Games Workshop 'deals' with BGG

So, you guys heard the news? Apparently GW has sent a cease & desist letter to BGG, demanding to pull all fan-made material related to their trademarks. FAQ's, rules summaries, re-desings of cards, you name it. And this goes for a lot, if not all their games, i.e. Man O' War, Dungeonquest, Talisman, Kings & Things, Fury of Dracula, Blood Bowl ... Photos are still up and so is material on other websites (Talisman Island comes to mind). So the question is, is this a BGG only purgatory, or only the first step, which will lead to all fan-based material be deleted.

For me this is apparently beyond stupid, even I have rarely used or downloaded such a file. So my question is: is there anyone here that thinks this is a clever move?

Here's some info:
Headless Hollow's Blog and related Geeklist
BGG thread in the GW folder

Ahhhhh... GW.

The armpit of the gaming industry.


[/size]

Maybe this is just a prelude to the long awaited for re-publishing of some cherished classics?


















Then again, maybe not.

I don't have a problem with GW doing this. There *is* massive trademark and copyright violation on BGG. For most games and publishers represented on BGG, the IP violations don't matter because the properties involved don't have a lot of value. For these small operators, there's almost certainly a net benefit to the free availability of this sort of material on the Geek.

GW's properties, on the other hand, are valuable. They license these properties to video game manufacturers. GW are obliged to defend those properties on the behalf of their shareholders and their licensees. GW's actions are out of step with the culture of BGG, and they inconvenience and alienate some of GW's customers, but that's business.

The people on BGG demand and expect that board games will remain a marginal cottage industry forever. They do it every time they falsely accuse publishers of illegal and unethical "price fixing," and they do it whenever they vilify game stores that dare to charge prices approaching MSRP. Whenever a publisher starts to behave like a disciplined business -- the kind of entity that threatens to broaden and popularize the hobby that they claim to love -- the geeks throw a hissy fit.

My Bloodbowl community was very excited about the imminent publication of Living Rulebook 6.0, which had just been approved by Jervis Johnson. However, it caim with the following caveat:

"Games Workshop is concerned about the number of fantasy football miniature companies now showing up in the world. GW has also noted that several of the Star Players do not have official figures. They have agreed to allow them in at this time ... however over the coming weeks (perhaps months) they do NOT want to see discussions (or worse released figures) from other miniatures companies about creating figures to fill in for missing star players. Miniatures released by any company should not be marketed online as being a great figure for such and such BB Star Players.

It was made VERY clear today that if GW sees such marketing happening ... they will pull the LRB 6.0 (or modify it before it is officially posted) and remove all star players from the document that do not have an official BB figure effectively deleting the rules for that player from the game (and since LRB 6.0 will be the offical rules for many years to come ... this will be a serious deletion). So not only would this erase all the LRB 6.0 stars added to balance out the game and team's inducements. But many LRB 5.0 stars (Ramtut, Zara, Hemlock, Helmet, Ugroth, Spleenripper, etc. etc) would be deleted from the rulebook as well.

As someone who has spent a very long time working on the LRB 6.0 ... this would be GW biting off their nose to spite their face as they'd be greatly unbalancing the inducement system with such a move ... however I have no doubt at all that their current love for BB is such that they would not hesistate to make such a move.

I've already written every head of every miniature company I know of and requested that they stay away from anything related to targetting the BB Star Player market.

At this point ... I just want to get the LRB 6.0 hosted by GW so we can call this project finished for the good of everyone."

The company is making changes that's for sure. What remains to be seen is why. I'm thinking that "change" at Games Workshop will likely be a net positive when all is said and done.

S.

At least GW knows that board gaming is not dependent on the internet. They do have their customer base and it doesn't consist of the guys over at BGG. How can anyone be enraged by a greedy compeny? GW's success is based on their constant rule changes (which make it neccessary to buy new units to stay competetive) and naturally they have interest of being the sole provider of these rules.

If I were GW, I too, would be saddened looking at for example a site like fumbbl.org, which allows players to build and play every Blood Bowl team and which sticks to a strange rule mixture of 3rd edition and LRB4. Most of these user wouldn't buy a new team or pay for new rules. Imagine something like this existed for their real assets.

I'm entertained by the whinging this move generates over at BGG - I especially enjoyed the rant by the guy who started out with: "Not that it will make any difference to GW, since I haven't bought a thing from them for years (except Space Hulk 3rd very recently)[...]". Most of the outcry is caused by people losing their files, and this just shows what the whole affair boils down to, some guys have lost their virtual property and are getting angry over it. As I said above, I think this will affect neither GW's customer base, nor the random guy looking for a Space Hulk FAQ (it can be found elsewhere).

Fuck them! The very fact that the LRB was not even written by GW is fact enough that they have their head up their ass!

They killed Talk Blood bowl as well..and given that it was basically that community that crafted the work of LRB FOR FREE.

So bang on all you want about "valuable property"...GW is not "protecting" anything...they threw it out the window in the 90's. The only reason they even have it around now is due to the very people they are now basically accusing of fucking their shit.

Besides...if they want to "protect" BB so they can dole it out as a video game...well...they managed to turn that into a piece of useless eyecandy.




I do believe that I just retired from Blood Bowl.

If I were GW, I too, would be saddened looking at for example a site like fumbbl.org, which allows players to build and play every Blood Bowl team and which sticks to a strange rule mixture of 3rd edition and LRB4. Most of these user wouldn't buy a new team or pay for new rules. Imagine something like this existed for their real assets.

I think this is bullshit.

While there would indeed be some people who would never spend money on the rel game...I argue that many many MORE people buy it and play it BECAUSE of FUMBBL! If a java programmer in the US and a kid with a server in his bedroom can put together something as awesome as FUMBBL to really enjoy a game...why couldn't GW????

Same applies to BSW, MBW and SBW. I own almost every game on offer at S/MBW exactly BECAUSE I had a chance to play them there.

Pull the files...kill TalkBloodbowl, take away fumbbl....and pretty soon the currently rejuvenated tourny scene will go back to 4 guys in a basement.

And that is good for business how?

Juniper wrote:

The people on BGG demand and expect that board games will remain a marginal cottage industry forever. They do it every time they falsely accuse publishers of illegal and unethical "price fixing," and they do it whenever they vilify game stores that dare to charge prices approaching MSRP. Whenever a publisher starts to behave like a disciplined business -- the kind of entity that threatens to broaden and popularize the hobby that they claim to love -- the geeks throw a hissy fit.

Well said.

Juniper wrote:

I don't have a problem with GW doing this. There *is* massive trademark and copyright violation on BGG. For most games and publishers represented on BGG, the IP violations don't matter because the properties involved don't have a lot of value. For these small operators, there's almost certainly a net benefit to the free availability of this sort of material on the Geek.

GW's properties, on the other hand, are valuable. They license these properties to video game manufacturers. GW are obliged to defend those properties on the behalf of their shareholders and their licensees. GW's actions are out of step with the culture of BGG, and they inconvenience and alienate some of GW's customers, but that's business.

The people on BGG demand and expect that board games will remain a marginal cottage industry forever. They do it every time they falsely accuse publishers of illegal and unethical "price fixing," and they do it whenever they vilify game stores that dare to charge prices approaching MSRP. Whenever a publisher starts to behave like a disciplined business -- the kind of entity that threatens to broaden and popularize the hobby that they claim to love -- the geeks throw a hissy fit.

I don't know man.., I was part of the BB tourney scene a few years ago and I know for a fact that GW couldn't give a fuck what happened to BB. Until, there started to be some serious interest again that is, and then they started all the C&Ds protecting their intellectual property.

Horse shit I say. Most of these IPs where considered dead in the fucking water by GW, and it was always a smallish (but growing), dedicated fan base that kept them alive, and even made all the necessary rules changes- that later became canon- before GW stepped and reminded everybody "whose game this is."

Take Space Hulk for example: a bunch of kids from Finland design a web based game Space Hulk v1.0. Game proves to have a HUGE, GLOBAL, fan base. After much legal douchebaggery, said kids are forced to rename the game to avoid any legal problems and- looky-loo-- SH 3rdED gets released.

And what about games that will never see the light of day again? Chainsaw Warrior, Curse of the Mummy's Tomb, the list could go on about all of these titles that a small group people truly care about and thus put some work in to help other people get their geek on. If GW cares so fucking much about these titles why don't they at least put up the rules for free?

The truth is, Juniper, that GW doesn't give a fuck about the game or the fan base: GW is just a bunch of suits in a boardroom that haven't ever even played a fucking boardgame, let alone a GW boardgame, who nod their heads obediently when one of the company's big wigs mutters something about the importance of protecting the company's intellectual property.

Fuck them. Fuck them twice for making me feel like an idiot for buying SH 3rd ED.

I don't have a problem with GW doing this. There *is* massive trademark and copyright violation on BGG.

That's true. It's also irrelevant. The real question is whether or not any of it is actually illegal. The four items of consideration for whether or not use of copyrighted material falls under the fair use clause are:

1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

I suppose you could make a case that, since BGG generates advertising revenue from the game pages, the use of copyrighted material is commerical. That certainly wouldn't apply to sites like Talisman Island, though.

2. the nature of the copyrighted work;

I'm guessing we're talking about the games themselves when it comes to copyright, but I could be wrong.

3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole

In most cases, this is a pretty small portion. Certainly not enough to make the publisher's finished copy unnecessary.

4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

Well, people have had the ability to make their own copies of Space Hulk from material posted online for years, and that didn't stop the game ( one of the most expensive on the market) from selling out in short order.

GW's properties, on the other hand, are valuable. They license these properties to video game manufacturers.

That's true, and the fact that they've been able to do this (and presumably, profit from it) while all that material was still on BGG and other sites just goes to show that their IP's value hasn't been diminished.

GW are obliged to defend those properties on the behalf of their shareholders and their licensees.

They also have an obligation to their shareholders and licensees not to foster a reputation for being money-grubbing, customer-abusing, litigious dickheads.

GW's actions are out of step with the culture of BGG, and they inconvenience and alienate some of GW's customers, but that's business.

We don't need publishers to produce physical media like we used to. That's why home video, print media, CDs, and anything else which can be easily published on the internet is dying. They're not out of step with BGG culture, they're out of step with modern culture, period.

Whenever a publisher starts to behave like a disciplined business -- the kind of entity that threatens to broaden and popularize the hobby that they claim to love -- the geeks throw a hissy fit.

Wow.

If you don't defend your trademarks, you are in jeopardy of losing them. It doesn't matter that Space Hulk sold out. What matters is whether a third party could use the Space Hulk trademarks on unlicensed merchandise. If Games Workshop implicitly allows BGG to use the Space Hulk trademark, then they can't stop some offshore manufacturer from doing the same.

We don't need publishers to produce physical media like we used to. That's why home video, print media, CDs, and anything else which can be easily published on the internet is dying. They're not out of step with BGG culture, they're out of step with modern culture, period.

You're right. Shut down the board game industry, everyone. It's all over except the cryin'.

I don't understand all the nerd rage.

For example I don't drink Coca Cola, because that company is seriously hurting people. But boycotting GW because they pissed off some gamers? Come on! If tomorrow they publish Chainsaw Warrior for example, you know most of you are going to buy it.

We don't need publishers to produce physical media like we used to. That's why home video, print media, CDs, and anything else which can be easily published on the internet is dying. They're not out of step with BGG culture, they're out of step with modern culture, period.

I'm an old-fashioned guy. I don't pay for virtual property - I don't use itunes, I still buy CDs.

It's not like GW took anybody's game away (like Amazon did with 1984 from their kindles), so relax. They're removing content using their artwork or rules.

Fair use is often misinterpreted. I can't play other people's music on my website even though I would neither make money from it nor would it hurt the music's market value. I could also easily say it's for an educational purpose.

It doesn't matter that Space Hulk sold out.

It certainly would if BGG hadn't buckled, and GW decided to take this thing to court.

What matters is whether a third party could use the Space Hulk trademarks on unlicensed merchandise. If Games Workshop implicitly allows BGG to use the Space Hulk trademark, then they can't stop some offshore manufacturer from doing the same.

Depending on what country this offshore manufacturer is in, they may not be able to stop it anyway. And besides, there's a world of difference between merchandise, and educational material like Universal Head's player aids.

You're right. Shut down the board game industry, everyone. It's all over except the cryin'.

Board games can't be distributed on the internet very easily. Some people do it, but it requires a fairly substantial investment of money and time on the part of the consumer.

Schweig! wrote:

Fair use is often misinterpreted. I can't play other people's music on my website even though I would neither make money from it nor would it hurt the music's market value. I could also easily say it's for an educational purpose.

Exactly.