Games Workshop 'deals' with BGG

Notahandle wrote:

And here's Chapel proving he's still the king of simultaneous trolling and brown-nosing:-
Screw GW?... No. THANK YOU GW!
If ever you need a justification for the Red Flag he's it...

I laughed at it, where's the sense of humor around here? It certainly looks and smells like a joke to me. Look at his followup posts.

Gary Sax wrote:

Notahandle wrote:

And here's Chapel proving he's still the king of simultaneous trolling and brown-nosing:-
Screw GW?... No. THANK YOU GW!
If ever you need a justification for the Red Flag he's it...

I laughed at it, where's the sense of humor around here? It certainly looks and smells like a joke to me. Look at his followup posts.

That's the impression I got too...

Juniper wrote:

maka wrote:

BTW, look at this online game's shop. They were forced to remove all images of GW products:

www.philibertnet.com/games-workshop.html

That makes sense, eh?

Some photos have been removed but others, it seems, have not. I wonder what it was that made some photos problematical, but not others?

At a guess, they may have been deep-linking to photos on GW's site instead of hosting their own. That's popped up more than once so far on other sites.

maka wrote:

And oh, all of a sudden printing your own copy of an oop game is seen as such a bad thing here?

Nobody said that either.

There have been multiple posts about how bad it is that BGG hosts files that might let you build your own copy of a game. Usually these are long OOP games. I see nothing wrong with that.

I didn't read any posts that said it was bad that BGG hosts those files - could be wrong, I just skimmed some stuff. The gist of what I thought folks were saying is that, from the publisher's perspective it constitutes IP theft. And it is IP theft, as far as that goes. But for OOP games, who cares? Nobody besides the owner of the property.

It's like speeding. Technically it's wrong, but everyone does it and it typically harms nobody. But that doesn't mean the cop is a bad guy for giving you a ticket, no matter how much it pisses you off.

maka wrote:

Well, I don't think so. By removing the rating it's more like my rating becomes neutral. Like rating it with the average number. It's certainly better than rating it a 1 which I do think is unfair.

Let me give an example, tossing out the X number of 5.5 or whatever ratings that are added in for any game in the BGG algorithm.

Let's say that you rated SH 10 and I rated it 1 and those are the only 2 ratings. The average is then 5.5

Then you pull your rating so there is only 1 left. The average has now dropped to 1

If you instead lowered your rating, to punish the evil corporation, to 7. The average would be 4 instead of 1.

But don't worry, it looks like every single GW and even FFG products are getting bodyslammed in the ratings. I wouldn't be surprised if a single AT game is left in the top 200 games within a few days.

Mr MOTO wrote:

But don't worry, it looks like every single GW and even FFG products are getting bodyslammed in the ratings. I wouldn't be surprised if a single AT game is left in the top 200 games within a few days.

And then AT will cease to be relevant, and all the games will turn to crap, right?

Stop worrying about the ratings on BGG. They exist to please the people on BGG, who are by and large people you wouldn't invite to your game table if it were on fire and they were carrying a bucket of Mountain Dew.

Those games were buried on the fifth page of BGG years ago and if they return there, we'll all carry on. Euros get sold by ratings. AT games get sold by "holy shit, this game is great, where do I get a copy?". Twas ever thus.

@ madwookiee
This is extremely off topic, but speeding does in fact harm people. Lots of people. Drunk driving and speeding are the top two reasons why people get killed or injured in the traffic. Your right that since lots of people drive too fast without being in a car crash, typically it harms nobody. But the thing is that if you're ever in a dangerous situation traffic-wise, speeding (or being drunk) is what makes the difference between being killed/killing someone or not.

Sorry for thread hijacking.

madwookiee wrote:

The gist of what I thought folks were saying is that, from the publisher's perspective it constitutes IP theft. And it is IP theft, as far as that goes. But for OOP games, who cares? Nobody besides the owner of the property.

It's like speeding. Technically it's wrong, but everyone does it and it typically harms nobody. But that doesn't mean the cop is a bad guy for giving you a ticket, no matter how much it pisses you off.

That's pretty much my point of view. I don't actually care very much if people steal Games Workshop's intellectual property. It's really none of my business.

On the other hand, I think it's insane to argue that Games Workshop has no right to care if people steal or misuse their intellectual property.

I have sympathy for the fans that have put a significant amount of effort into the material they created, like Universal Head. Those people might even feel that Games Workshop has impinged on their intellectual property rights. Are they correct? I don't know. It's certainly a gray area, but Games Workshop is obliged to assert their IP rights in gray area cases like these, too. It sucks to be Universal Head, and I feel sorry for him, but I can't see how Games Workshop has done anything illegal or unethical.

Another line of argument has been that Games Workshop is "stupid" and that business shouldn't be done this way in the 21st Century. I assume that the people making this argument know fuck all about running a business in any century. Regardless, I don't think that stupidity or incompetence are, in themselves, good reasons to boycott a company or to libel them in a public arena.

The comparison to the recording industry doesn't make sense to me. Games Workshop hasn't actually sued anybody, as far as I know. They haven't violated any standards of personal privacy in order to prosecute suspected copyright violators. The don't have a history of screwing over the individual owners (in the RIAA's case, the musicians) of the property that they are supposedly protecting.

Gary Sax wrote:
" It certainly looks and smells like a joke to me."
I don't deny there's some humour there as well. But I didn't say 'the king of simultaneous trolling, brown-nosing, and humour' because I don't think he's all that funny.

Juniper wrote:
" Another line of argument has been that Games Workshop is "stupid" and that business shouldn't be done this way in the 21st Century. I assume that the people making this argument know fuck all about running a business in any century."
Then you'd be wrong. When I told a friend on Friday, 'stupid' was his instant reaction; and he invests very heavily in companies.

mads b. wrote:

@ madwookiee
This is extremely off topic, but speeding does in fact harm people. Lots of people. Drunk driving and speeding are the top two reasons why people get killed or injured in the traffic. Your right that since lots of people drive too fast without being in a car crash, typically it harms nobody. But the thing is that if you're ever in a dangerous situation traffic-wise, speeding (or being drunk) is what makes the difference between being killed/killing someone or not.

Sorry for thread hijacking.

No doubt - but the difference between 65 and 66 is largely negligible for what you're talking about, except that one is illegal when I'm driving to work and the other isn't.

screamingtruth wrote:

I'm not saying it is worth the boycott nonsense they are making of it over on BGG. But I do think it is a bad move for a game company to discourage fan creativity surrounding their games. I mean that is what some of the uber-fans get off on. I think it is a bad move, and I don't think that allowing fan created stuff has the IP repercussions that some are suggesting.

It's false to say GW do not incourage fan creativity - they have built a whole hobby ON fan creativity. The fact they consider themselves a hobby and not a boardgame manufacturer is proof enough of that.

I don't buy this theory that GW don't allow you to be creative with their stuff. Mission 13 for space hulk was after all a mission generator, so you most certainly ARE allowed to make missions and share them. What GW are however is very protective, and ALWAYS have been. Look at things like character record sheets in games like Advanced heroquest - they always, without fail, put a disclaimer on there giving you permission to photocopy that page for personal use. In short what they are really doing is making sure there is no mistake as to what you can and cannot recreate. I know BGG loves the Martin Wallice school of buisness but fact is GW are beholden to shareholders and thus are professional.

They are very protective of their settings and how they are portraid, as they should be because those settings are worth millions to them. Companies like Blizzard are exactly the same - if you don't believe me talk to anyone who deals with blizzard licences and they will tell you how much vetoing and checking Blizzard will do of a 3rd parties licenced product before it is allowed to be released.

They are also, by neccessity, carefull of the legal ramifications. Artwork is a big one - they tell you point blank you cant reuse it. Two probably reasons - one, they value their brand and don't want it on non licenced stuff. Secondly, there could be trouble with the artist. The artist is paid to produce illustrations under certain conditions - for example a picture for a rulebook or their general file. Having their work used all over the net is not part of it, and there is the possibility the artist could demand additional money because of this - remember creative ownership in England tends to be much stronger than that of the states (look at Dr Who and the Deleks for a prime example). That being said I'm not sure how GW and artists contracts / commisions work.

Most companies will overlook breaches because it is their money. I suspect Peterson isn't happy with everything that goes up at BGG but it's his money he is risking so he can keep his mouth open or shut as he likes. GW is not like that - copyright, IP and licence issues involve shareholders money, and the management at GW MUST protect that or frankly they should not have jobs. The patrons of BGG can bitch all they like, but the protection of their property is much more important to shareholders than bad publicity on the internet.

GW has strict guidlines on what you can do as far as 'fan created content' goes. If you want to be safe just don't make your work look too professional and you will be right. Not eveything that was removed from BGG had to be removed, they just did that because actually working out where the site stands on anything legally and having plans to combat that is something that should have been done years ago when the site became a professional entity but never was, and none of the managers can be bothered doing it from the look of it.

maka wrote:

What's with the BGG obsession here anyway? Just because you hate BGG doesn't mean anything that affects BGG and its users in a negative way "must be good", does it? This is about much more than just BGG. This is a move that affects fans of GW games on many sites over the world.

BGG is this sites version of Big Brother. People comment on it because it's entertaining to do so, as is watching the constant e-drama.

GW's move was a stupid one no matter what your stance on BGG is. Most companies don't need to piss on their fans to protect their IP, and what GW just did showed a lot of disrespect towards people that love their games and have supported them when GW didn't.

Just because you don't like the outcome doesn't mean it was a stupid move.
Name these 'most companies' who don't piss their fans off when they protect their IP.

And oh, all of a sudden printing your own copy of an oop game is seen as such a bad thing here? I made my own copy of Magic Realm from material available on the net and that eventually drove me to find an original copy. If it was reprinted today I'd buy it without a second thought.Also, the redesign Karim did of that game is an amazing work even if it does allow you to play the game without paying the owners of the rights, and the high interest level this game has right now is 100% thanks to the community of players that are putting hours and hours of their life to support it. This is just one example of many.

No one said it was bad. But it is illegal.
Melbournes idiotic laws means we have legal prositiution but can't buy a XXX video. So if I want porn I download it for free. But its not suddenly 'ok' to do so because I can't get it, I'm fully aware than when I'm doing it I'm in the wrong and breaking the law.
You can put any spin on it you want, but unless the owner has put Magic Realm in the public domain making a copy from home use is against the law. The game being out of print does not change that. Now I couldn't care less and would still make my own copy (if I could be bothered) but at the same time I'm not going to piss in my own ear and claim I have some sort of high moral ground when I do it.

Games are meant to be played and when the company owning the rights to a game refuses to make it available for people that want to play it, then I see nothing wrong in people making their own copies.

The law disagrees.

And about BGG overreacting: What should they do? The C&D letters that have been revealed are all too broad and no one wants to risk getting sued by such a big company. This is clearly a case of abuse by a company that knows no one will risk fighting them because they're so big. Even BGG is small compared to GW. Now, I'd love to see BGG fighing this but I'm not sure it'd be worth unless they're prepared to spend a lot of money. So I'd rather them overreact than get shut down...

Oh give me a fucking break. There is no 'abuse' here. All over that site BGG makes money on material without permission or payment to the owner of the rights of said material.
BGG can spend all of the money 'fighting this' as they like - they would get utterly creamed 10 times worse than napster did.

And don't forget BGG ratings are not about HOW GOOD A GAME IS but HOW MUCH YOU WANT TO PLAY a certain game. I can understand people lowering their rating a couple of points because of this, although I don't agree with people that changed their rating to 1...

If you don't want to play the game anymore put your money where your mouth is and get rid of it.

Gary Sax wrote:

Notahandle wrote:

And here's Chapel proving he's still the king of simultaneous trolling and brown-nosing:-
Screw GW?... No. THANK YOU GW!
If ever you need a justification for the Red Flag he's it...

I laughed at it, where's the sense of humor around here? It certainly looks and smells like a joke to me. Look at his followup posts.

I agree, it's a joke. Lucky it doesn't have "Mr Skeletor" up the top or it would have been 2 months!