Iconic Musical Performers (MJ inspired thoughts)

I remember in the 90s people saying that the eighties were a terrible decade for music. Does anyone think that now? I think 20 years hindsight is very helpful.

Trying to be objective I think Beyonce probably is as good a songwriter and as iconic as Madonna and at least in the same league as Michael Jackson. There are a couple of really great straight up pop records each year.

It is easy to dismiss bands when you and listening to them at the time but there are people writing songs now that people will be listening to in 30 years time. From the UK I would say stuff like Oasis, Take That, Arctic Monkeys and Coldplay. Those songs have already got engrained in the culture over here. They are the songs that everyone can sing along to.

I think when it is happening around you you get blinded by the fluff and the crud. Twenty years later you forget all that and can remember and identify the classic artists. Also, those artists will have another 20 years or releases and performances to cement their reputations.

Citadel wrote:

I remember in the 90s people saying that the eighties were a terrible decade for music. Does anyone think that now? I think 20 years hindsight is very helpful.

Trying to be objective I think Beyonce probably is as good a songwriter and as iconic as Madonna and at least in the same league as Michael Jackson. There are a couple of really great straight up pop records each year.

It is easy to dismiss bands when you and listening to them at the time but there are people writing songs now that people will be listening to in 30 years time. From the UK I would say stuff like Oasis, Take That, Arctic Monkeys and Coldplay. Those songs have already got engrained in the culture over here. They are the songs that everyone can sing along to.

I think when it is happening around you you get blinded by the fluff and the crud. Twenty years later you forget all that and can remember and identify the classic artists. Also, those artists will have another 20 years or releases and performances to cement their reputations.

I never thought that the '80s was a terrible decade for music, but it came up short in comparisons with the '60s and '70s. I don't know any stats, but I'm guessing that "classic" rock stations are more popular than "modern" rock stations, though I would personally rather listen to the modern rock.

Beyonce? Really? I just don't see it. I'm not a fan of either Madonna or Michael Jackson, but I could readily name a bunch of hits from both. Beyonce has a catchy name that's fun to say, but otherwise, she is really not a big deal in the overall history of music.

Most recent music doesn't even have much of a chance to gain widespread fame and popularity, because the music industry's traditional model has broken down under the stress of massive piracy, and it hasn't been replaced by anything better. So there are a lot of bands competing for a little attention right now, and the successful ones are getting just that, a little attention.

Citadel wrote:

I think when it is happening around you you get blinded by the fluff and the crud. Twenty years later you forget all that and can remember and identify the classic artists. Also, those artists will have another 20 years or releases and performances to cement their reputations.

This sounds nice in theory but when Thriller broke big, EVERYONE knew it was an instant classic, it didn't take time. Elvis exploded immediately, Beatles too. Al Jolson was huge and everyone knew he'd be a classic.

The 90's don't have that. We see now that Cobain is huge but it wasn't certain what would happen at the time. Who knew that Pearl Jam would dissappear. I can't remember the last time a student asked for Jeremy.. but there was a time. It just doesn't happen now or I'm old as I said before. Maybe the Joans Brothers will be juge in 20 years (shoot me now) but I can't name a song of theirs.

More than just iconic, a real legend.

The 80s were called a "terrible" decade for music by a bunch of post-1970s trad-rock/AOR dinosaurs. It's bullshit. There's music in the 80s that was every bit as vital, influential, and creatively compelling as anything before or after. In the 1980s, which I think may in fact be the greatest decade for music because it's really when genres became really well defined and distinct- moreso than in the past. The 1980s saw the fruition of postpunk, hip hop, metal, hardcore, death rock, indie pop, electronic dance music, and countless genres and spin-offs of those genres. Not to mention some really incredible pop music- listen to The Human League's "Dare" for example. That's an incredible pop album that really captures a sense of time and place- yet it's still timeless, as long as you're willing to forget that "Don't You Want Me" is in a fucking mop commercial now.

That's another thing that happened in the 80s, music became commodified. Some of that was due to videos, some if it was due to corporations finally getting the music business reigned in.

Anybody that says that the 80s were terrible for music is frankly full of shit. Echo and the Bunnymen's "Ocean Rain' is as great an album as anything released by the Doors, Dylan, or Hendrix. "Sign O' The Times" is as great as "What's Goin' On". "Power, Corruption, and Lies" is every bit the incredible record as "TransEurope Express" is.

I'm not totally sure that "time will tell" applies here...most really great music makes an impact as soon as it enters the bloodflow of popular culture. People knew right away that ABBA was an incredible pop outfit. "Purple Rain" was a tremendous phenomenon, it didn't take 20 years to see that it was one of the top albums of the decade. Anybody could see from the start that the Pet Shop Boys were going to outdistance Book of Love.

JonJacob wrote:

Citadel wrote:

I think when it is happening around you you get blinded by the fluff and the crud. Twenty years later you forget all that and can remember and identify the classic artists. Also, those artists will have another 20 years or releases and performances to cement their reputations.

This sounds nice in theory but when Thriller broke big, EVERYONE knew it was an instant classic, it didn't take time. Elvis exploded immediately, Beatles too. Al Jolson was huge and everyone knew he'd be a classic.

The 90's don't have that. We see now that Cobain is huge but it wasn't certain what would happen at the time. Who knew that Pearl Jam would dissappear. I can't remember the last time a student asked for Jeremy.. but there was a time. It just doesn't happen now or I'm old as I said before. Maybe the Joans Brothers will be juge in 20 years (shoot me now) but I can't name a song of theirs.

In the summer of 1992 you couldn't go anywhere without hearing Nirvana. You could listen to an entire song just from cars driving by with their windows down. I'd bought Pearl Jam's first album *just* before Nevermind hit it big, and I was firmly convinced it was a better album. You know, I still think it is. I may be the only person, because it certainly seemed that way back then.

Nirvana were marked for glory as soon as that album came out. Knocking out a few more good ones and checking out early is a recipe for eternal memory.

I think people are a bit more media-savvy and wary now, and the fragmentation of channels dilutes the overall effect. MTV was still a major player in the music culture wars in the early 90s, and I can't think of anything that replaced it.

We're all Indie Rock Pete now.

Mad Dog wrote:

More than just iconic, a real legend.

This album will still be playing in dorm rooms fifty years from now. Only this one, though.

It's goddamn shame that the world associated Bob Marley with reggae so tightly that the market practically died with him.

Echo and the Bunnymen's "Ocean Rain' is as great an album as anything released by the Doors, Dylan, or Hendrix

That's funny! You need to take off your Emerson, Lake and Palmer glasses and go back to talking about games!

Shouldn't you be listening to your Genesis and Marillion LPs, Weeks?

Besides, Ian Mculloch himself declared "Ocean Rain" the greatest album of all time.

Not Sure wrote:

Nirvana were marked for glory as soon as that album came out. Knocking out a few more good ones and checking out early is a recipe for eternal memory.

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I might agree but many thought that Pearl Jam would last too. No one talks about them now. After Cobain died it seemed much more likely but not the moment Nevermind came out... which also took a couple of months as I recall to reach it's peek. Pearl Jam was huge and people argued vehemently about who was better... it was like a Stones Beatles type thing. Obviously it took awhile for us to see that no one listens to Pearl Jam anymore. Who's better.. I don't really have an opinion on that.

On the whole Beyonce, Madonna, Michael Jackson thing. I can't say I like any of them. But I think Crazy in Love, Say My Name, Say My Name, I don't think you're ready for this jelly do stand their own musically and lyrically against Thriller, Bad, Earth Song, Man in the Mirror. I do have to accept that I don't think any of those songs are that great.

Jeremy is a good example of why Pearl Jam are getting left behind. A song about being a jock and beating up an already troubled kid. Macho angst, hardly uhniversal truth is it. Nirvana were much bigger in the UK than Pearl Jam even before the death of Kurt Cobain.

It is when you get to Bob Marley, Desmond Dekker, Jimi Hendrix, The Stooges, Black Sabbath.... Are we seeing any of the kind of musicians that change the rules of music these days?

Pearl Jam never really stood out from the pack for me. Their sound, judging by the hits, was close enough to Soundgarden, Stone Temple Pilot, The Screaming Trees and other bands that I didn't find them special. Green Day and Weezer were much more distinctive at the time.

It's goddamn shame that the world associated Bob Marley with reggae so tightly that the market practically died with him.

It really is. What's worse is that Marley's incredible music and legacy has been so spoiled by commercialism and a bunch of stoned fuckhead fratboys. His legacy should have been positive social change and passionate music but instead it's Bob Marley Brand Incense and some poster in a dorm room.

Reggae had a lot more popularity out of the US though, like in the US. It's a damn shame that Steel Pulse, Gregory Issacs, Linval Thompson, and Althea and Donna never enjoyed a speck of the fame that Marley had. Let alone Lee Perry.

Yes, I said Althea and Donna. "Uptown Top Ranking" is _the_ pop reggae song. Fuck UB40.

Michael Barnes wrote:

The 80s were called a "terrible" decade for music by a bunch of post-1970s trad-rock/AOR dinosaurs. It's bullshit. There's music in the 80s that was every bit as vital, influential, and creatively compelling as anything before or after. In the 1980s, which I think may in fact be the greatest decade for music because it's really when genres became really well defined and distinct- moreso than in the past. The 1980s saw the fruition of postpunk, hip hop, metal, hardcore, death rock, indie pop, electronic dance music, and countless genres and spin-offs of those genres. Not to mention some really incredible pop music- listen to The Human League's "Dare" for example. That's an incredible pop album that really captures a sense of time and place- yet it's still timeless, as long as you're willing to forget that "Don't You Want Me" is in a fucking mop commercial now.

That's another thing that happened in the 80s, music became commodified. Some of that was due to videos, some if it was due to corporations finally getting the music business reigned in.

Anybody that says that the 80s were terrible for music is frankly full of shit. Echo and the Bunnymen's "Ocean Rain' is as great an album as anything released by the Doors, Dylan, or Hendrix. "Sign O' The Times" is as great as "What's Goin' On". "Power, Corruption, and Lies" is every bit the incredible record as "TransEurope Express" is.

I'm not totally sure that "time will tell" applies here...most really great music makes an impact as soon as it enters the bloodflow of popular culture. People knew right away that ABBA was an incredible pop outfit. "Purple Rain" was a tremendous phenomenon, it didn't take 20 years to see that it was one of the top albums of the decade. Anybody could see from the start that the Pet Shop Boys were going to outdistance Book of Love.

Not sure that Echo and the Bunnymen are the greatest defence of 80s music. They are somewhat marred by extremely 80s production. The songwriting is superb though.

Prince never got me. I think he is another one being left behind. For me, he is more of a great virtuoso than a great musician.

I wonder that genres becoming more distinct hasn't hurt music more than helped it.

I grew up and still live in the South. The American South, sadly, is notorious for racism and I'll tell you that I still encounter racist ideas and attitudes even today. One of the reasons I quit working at a corporate record store was because I was specifically told by corporate management that I needed to keep a closer eye on my Black employees- not to mention the company started taking the theft deterrent devices off of all the white music, but left them on the hip hop and R&B CDs.

Don't make the mistake of thinking this is a southern thing, it's a regional thing I think, but not necessarily southern. I've heard this shit all I my life, and I live in New York. For instance, when I was little, my babysitter used to get called "nigger lover" because she dated black men. C'mon guys, MLK, segregation, all that stuff you read about in the history books, it wasn't that long ago.

Anyway, back to the icons. There are no more, there won't be any more. There will still be huge acts that are really popular in a bunch of different circles, but nothing on the scale of a Fab Four or Michael Jackson. Freddie Mercury will be iconic to rock fans, Stevie Ray Vaughan will be iconic to blues fans, Ozzy will be iconic to metal fans, Tupac will be iconic to rap fans, but everyone's going to go their separate ways and that's that.

It's not just music either, do we have any iconic movie stars anymore? Eh, Depp and Sam Jackson maybe, but there are no more Steve McQueens, or Marlon Brandos. Same goes for directors, too. Will there ever be another Spielberg or Kubrick? Will anyone know the name of some computer animator the way people know Harryhausen's? I doubt it. Fuck, even stupid late shows are becoming homogenized! Jimmy fucking Fallon will be doing Johnny Carson's job one day.

We can sit here and do it with everything, artists, authors, video game designers, everything. Harry Dean Stanton said it best in Red Dawn; it's gone, boys, it's all gone.