Next step on my way of becoming the incarnation of Anti-Americanism

Schweig! wrote: But I have to make clear that I do not automatically identify with every member of a group I happen to belong to. A vegan friend already warned be that there are lots of bat-shit folks out there who practice veganism as a way to become one with the cosmos or similar esoteric crap. I just want to be healthier. In addition a vegan diet is more ecological (there isn't that much difference between omnivorism and vegetarianism in that regard); I don't own a car either. I also hate myself and like to deprive myself of joy.

Poland seems nice though. I definitely like the Czech, great sense of humour.

I used to subscribe to the Vegetarian Times magazine but the woo drove me nuts. The recipes were always good though.

Schweig! wrote: But I have to make clear that I do not automatically identify with every member of a group I happen to belong to. A vegan friend already warned be that there are lots of bat-shit folks out there who practice veganism as a way to become one with the cosmos or similar esoteric crap. I just want to be healthier. In addition a vegan diet is more ecological (there isn't that much difference between omnivorism and vegetarianism in that regard); I don't own a car either. I also hate myself and like to deprive myself of joy.

Poland seems nice though. I definitely like the Czech, great sense of humour.

The ecological reasons are the only ones that have ever made sense to me. Moral reasons I always found arrogant and healthy reasons... well, I think people are far too obsessed with living as long as possible. It's become a hobby in and of itself and a disturbing one when we have 7 billion people around already. We already live extremely long lives compared to our ancestors. How greedy can we be?

I've known tons of vegans and just regular vegetarians during my life and this esoteric cosmic type isn't nearly as common as most people think. Most are pretty good people. My biggest gripe with it is when they assume it makes you better then non-vegetarians. I have more respect for trees then I do cows... seriously.

I toyed with the idea of going veggie but I was raised as a hunter and still eat meat my family has hunted... which tastes way better then any of the crap the meat industry spits out on a regular basis. I can't let go of that lifestyle now, it's in my blood. Hunting an animal and bringing it home to feed your whole family for months feels really fucking good, it feels way better then buying it in a store where who knows how that animal was raised and what your supporting by buying it.

... but what's wrong with being one with the cosmos? I imagine it would feel pretty good.

I don't want to necessarily live long, I have hardly any say in that. I just want to eat healthier food.

I also don't hate people who eat meat all of a sudden, so there's no need to justify yourself. Hunting in the wild (for food) is alright I guess. I can't say I'm particularly fond of animals. If tigers die out that's tough luck, thousands of species don't exist any longer. I assume you also butcher the prey yourself? That's one thing I could never do and always felt a little guilty about while still eating meat.

I don't know if there's a way to become one with cosmos, I just doubt what you eat has anything to with it... (excluding drugs)

I'm a big meat-eater and have dated a couple vegetarians. I never came close to giving up meat (anyone hear about Tom Dwan's prop bet with Phil Ivey on giving up meat for a year for a million dollars and the guy bought his way out after a few months?), and have never heard a compelling reason to give up meat.

The closest anyone has ever come to making a decent case was a modern day philosopher and I forget his damn name but he was featured in a really cool artsy movie about philosophy. His point was basically if as a sentinent being, he is aware of the world and of animals and of their existence in the world, and of their needs and how the meat industry works and the suffering caused by some of it. Since he aware of all these things and of his place in the world, does he really have the moral right to eat one of these animals simply because he enjoys the taste of their flesh?

I dunno, I might be missing some of his points in there somewhere but to me, it struck home as making sense. I eat meat cuz I like how it tastes and that's it. He's right that it's not much of a reason to kill or allow the killing of creatures of Earth. He makes a good point.

I continue to eat meat just the same but this was the closest I've come to thinking it might be kinda wrong.

Vegetarian is not necessarily healthier. As I've said I'm not particularly fond of animals, that's why I never was vegetarian. I'm pretty weak-willed that's why I could never say, from now on I eat healthier, it's easier for me to follow a principle. For example I'm not particularly sporty but I play football on Friday every week.

However, I've also developed a distaste for meat, simply because the meat I can afford is of bad quality. Back in the village I grew up you could actually take a look at the cow or pig before it was brought from the local farmer to the local butcher and that was meat I liked or probably still like. I don't like milk any more, but that's natural I guess. I never liked cheese. So the step for me to vegan wasn't as hard as it likely is for vegetarians who consume lots of dairy.

I like fruit and vegetables, well, most of them. I used to eat plenty of fast food (i.e. once or twice a week), but I don't like that any more either. If I'm really in a hurry and need a quick snack, there's falafel with salad and oil/vinegar served at every kebab shop and those are plenty in Germany. One big advantage, without which it would be a lot harder for me to be vegan, is that the uni canteen serves vegan meals every weekday and since only a handful of people order it (you have to order in advance) and it's cooked fresh, it's of a lot better quality than the usual meals.

I hate borscht though. I only tried it once but that was really bad. I need good convincing to try that again. I'm not that fond of soy products either, and a little disgusted by the products trying to imitate meat.

I say

+1 borscht
+3 gazpacho
+5 beef

The only vegetable I don't like is turnips -- and I am ambivalent about parsnips.

Moral reasons I always found arrogant

Wuh? At the risk of poking a hornet's nest, what's arrogant about my own, personal decision - which does not impact you in any way - that it's more important to me to avoid inflicting suffering on animals than it is to enjoy the taste and convenience of meat?

I like parsnips if that helps...

MattDP wrote:

Moral reasons I always found arrogant

Wuh? At the risk of poking a hornet's nest, what's arrogant about my own, personal decision - which does not impact you in any way - that it's more important to me to avoid inflicting suffering on animals than it is to enjoy the taste and convenience of meat?

It's mostly implied.

There's a few things that may or may not apply to you. In my experience the veggies who have their moral reasons have created a hierarchy of life forms. X animal is more worthy of my mercy then y animal or plant. Which I think is arrogant. Who are we to decide which creature is worthy of mercy and replacement and which ones are not? Not only can you not prove which is more valuable, but it's usually decided based on looks rather then anything scientific. It's easy to relate to animals that look a certain way. 2 eye's, four limbs etc... I was being serious when I said I have more respect for trees then I do cows. I would rather find a way to replace wood then flesh.

On top of that most the moral veggies I've met say that it makes them a better person to not eat meat, which assumes of course I am worse then I could be... to them. It implies that in this regard I am a worse person then they are when in effect they've made a choice that is essentially untenable. To me, any time you claim knowledge of the value of life forms there's something arrogant there.

I should probably add that I have a bunch of arrogant qualities. I don't like them in me either and keep trying to change it.

JonJacob wrote: I was being serious when I said I have more respect for trees then I do cows. I would rather find a way to replace wood then flesh.

But that doesn't justify eating meat - on the contrary.

JonJacob wrote: There's a few things that may or may not apply to you. In my experience the veggies who have their moral reasons have created a hierarchy of life forms. X animal is more worthy of my mercy then y animal or plant. Which I think is arrogant.

I've never known a vegetarian to make this distinction. This may be a stateside thing, as I do recall reading once that PETA ran a campaign over there about "ocean kittens" to try and make people feel more sympathetic toward fish.

JonJacob wrote: Who are we to decide which creature is worthy of mercy and replacement and which ones are not? Not only can you not prove which is more valuable, but it's usually decided based on looks rather then anything scientific.

This is just flat-out wrong. Vegetarians decide what's "worthy" and what's not based on suffering, and the judgement is quite clearly based in science. On a basic level animals are clearly concious and have nervous systems which are capable of experiencing pain and possibly more subjective emotions such as fear and regret. Plants do not. Ergo one cannot eat meat without causing pain to living organisms, whereas you can eat plants.

JonJacob wrote: On top of that most the moral veggies I've met say that it makes them a better person to not eat meat, which assumes of course I am worse then I could be... to them. It implies that in this regard I am a worse person then they are when in effect they've made a choice that is essentially untenable.

The choice is certainly not untenable - see above. And yes, some vegetarians will say it makes them better people not to eat meat. Not me: my position is simply that I asked myself the question of whether I could go out, hunt, kill and butcher an animal myself and still be willing to eat it, and the answer was no. That's my standard. If you can do that, then eating meat is good with you and I'm good with that. Where I do get preachy is with people who eat meat but shy away from the realities of its production and distribution.

Beef. It's what's for dinner!

Vegetarianism, gun control and feminization of men is all part of the plan for a massive government takeover and shift to socialism/communism.

If men are weak, they cannot fight back.

You just can't build up muscle chomping on a celery stick.

I will never give up meat. I enjoy eating it too much. More power to anyone who can, but I certainly cannot.

And I don't need to be judged for it, either; which as JonJacob says, happens a lot.

Unfortunately Matt, I wouldn't hunt down and kill my food either; that's what I pay other people for. If they're ok with that and make their living from it, I think that should also make it ok. Not that it would change my opinion either way.

Ken B. wrote: Unfortunately Matt, I wouldn't hunt down and kill my food either; that's what I pay other people for. If they're ok with that and make their living from it, I think that should also make it ok.

We may be misunderstanding one another. I'm not saying that I think there's anything wrong with paying other people to get your meat. I'm saying there's something wrong with paying other people to do it if you don't think you'd be emotionally capable of doing it yourself.

Put it another way. Could you visit a slaughterhouse, watch it in action and come away still happy to tuck into a steak at the end of the day? If so, great. If you couldn't, then I call double standard.