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The Kickstarter Effect
- Sagrilarus
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27 Feb 2015 23:02 - 27 Feb 2015 23:05 #198520
by Sagrilarus
Replied by Sagrilarus on topic The Kickstarter Effect
The downside risk for consumers in this model isn't getting no game, it's not having the game everyone wants when it's no longer available. That dynamic aligns the sellers' and the buyers' primary incentives. What remains is overcoming the less severe errors of overpaying or getting a bad product. That too is mitigated by unique content, easing the concerns of potential buyers by dangling the proposition of resale in front of them. Add to that the fun of the journey and you have an attractive "package" which is the entire buying experience, not just the game.
Here's the bottom line -- if you don't participate you can buy every hard-to-find overpriced exclusive you actually have interest in after the fact with your savings and have money left over. But there's not a lot of fun in that. It's just practical. Zzzzzzzzz.
S.
Here's the bottom line -- if you don't participate you can buy every hard-to-find overpriced exclusive you actually have interest in after the fact with your savings and have money left over. But there's not a lot of fun in that. It's just practical. Zzzzzzzzz.
S.
Last edit: 27 Feb 2015 23:05 by Sagrilarus.
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27 Feb 2015 23:57 - 28 Feb 2015 00:00 #198522
by VonTush
You keep saying that, but I'm not seeing it. Maybe I'm looking at the wrong games? Examples?
I can show you plenty of where the exclusives pay for the person's pledge. I can show you plenty where there is no product of exclusives in the market. I'm looking at an eBay auction that ended containing all the Zombicide promos from Seasons 1, 2 and 3...Went for $1,200.00. Boss Monster went for $25 via KS, is a game that you can easily find for $20 online, the KS version though? Goes for $150 on eBay (sold prices that is not just what's being asked).
There also seems to be this assumption running that the majority of people who back a project are just looking for the flip? Looking for the deal? Again, that's something that I'm just not seeing.
Replied by VonTush on topic The Kickstarter Effect
Sagrilarus wrote: Here's the bottom line -- if you don't participate you can buy every hard-to-find overpriced exclusive you actually have interest in after the fact with your savings and have money left over. But there's not a lot of fun in that. It's just practical. Zzzzzzzzz.
You keep saying that, but I'm not seeing it. Maybe I'm looking at the wrong games? Examples?
I can show you plenty of where the exclusives pay for the person's pledge. I can show you plenty where there is no product of exclusives in the market. I'm looking at an eBay auction that ended containing all the Zombicide promos from Seasons 1, 2 and 3...Went for $1,200.00. Boss Monster went for $25 via KS, is a game that you can easily find for $20 online, the KS version though? Goes for $150 on eBay (sold prices that is not just what's being asked).
There also seems to be this assumption running that the majority of people who back a project are just looking for the flip? Looking for the deal? Again, that's something that I'm just not seeing.
Last edit: 28 Feb 2015 00:00 by VonTush.
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28 Feb 2015 00:08 - 28 Feb 2015 00:10 #198523
by VonTush
You do realize that this isn't strictly a KS thing right?
That an entire juggernaut of a website thrives because it provides a gathering place to do all that you describe?
Explain the difference between that and people who have pre-ordered the entire first wave of Armada ($220 online), wait for FFG's promo materials, talk about what they're buying and why, watch and re-watch Team Covenant's video, theorize about every little card peek they see, keeping tabs on the Chinese New Year, the Dock Strike, checking FFG's site every day to see if there's a status change.
Replied by VonTush on topic The Kickstarter Effect
Michael Barnes wrote: Seriously, WTF is wrong with people when buying a game turns into a fucking year, two year long process of checking updates, talking about what you're backing, tracking "rewards", watching videos, wondering if you'll ever actually get the game or not and if it will be any good.
You do realize that this isn't strictly a KS thing right?
That an entire juggernaut of a website thrives because it provides a gathering place to do all that you describe?
Explain the difference between that and people who have pre-ordered the entire first wave of Armada ($220 online), wait for FFG's promo materials, talk about what they're buying and why, watch and re-watch Team Covenant's video, theorize about every little card peek they see, keeping tabs on the Chinese New Year, the Dock Strike, checking FFG's site every day to see if there's a status change.
Last edit: 28 Feb 2015 00:10 by VonTush.
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28 Feb 2015 00:26 - 28 Feb 2015 20:33 #198524
by scissors
Replied by scissors on topic The Kickstarter Effect
.
Last edit: 28 Feb 2015 20:33 by scissors.
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28 Feb 2015 05:40 - 28 Feb 2015 06:04 #198530
by Sagrilarus
To my recollection this is the first time I've said that particular concept, but that's because it isn't very profound. If you don't spend your money one place you have it to spend in another. And your comments that follow appear to support my point, so I don't know what example you're looking for. If you don't buy two-dozen games sight unseen you should have somewhere between $600 and $2400 available for other purposes. I'm arguing that, given a bit more time do some homework you would like purchase some of those games at aftermarket prices and leave others behind, and maybe spend some bucks on the six inch plastic doo-dad that comes in the game you're really enthusiastic about.
And yes, none of this is "strictly a Kickstarter thing." Kickstarter has just industrialized the concept.
S.
Replied by Sagrilarus on topic The Kickstarter Effect
You keep saying that, but I'm not seeing it. Maybe I'm looking at the wrong games? Examples?
To my recollection this is the first time I've said that particular concept, but that's because it isn't very profound. If you don't spend your money one place you have it to spend in another. And your comments that follow appear to support my point, so I don't know what example you're looking for. If you don't buy two-dozen games sight unseen you should have somewhere between $600 and $2400 available for other purposes. I'm arguing that, given a bit more time do some homework you would like purchase some of those games at aftermarket prices and leave others behind, and maybe spend some bucks on the six inch plastic doo-dad that comes in the game you're really enthusiastic about.
And yes, none of this is "strictly a Kickstarter thing." Kickstarter has just industrialized the concept.
S.
Last edit: 28 Feb 2015 06:04 by Sagrilarus.
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28 Feb 2015 08:49 #198531
by VonTush
Replied by VonTush on topic The Kickstarter Effect
I swore you brought that up earlier in another discussion...I could be wrong.
So, if I'm understanding it correctly, there's two assumptions being made...That the two dozen games more or less are an impulse buy and that down the line there will be at least some regrets of those two dozen games. But what if there's not?
And that's the problem I'm seeing, every argument is based on assumptions or misconceptions. Assuming that people don't know what they're buying, that they underestimate the risk, that expectations are for innovative and ground breaking games. A belief that there's nothing but sub par games. A belief that every gamer should want top shelf games (some people, like myself, actually shoot for the "Strong 7" games because those innovative 10's never see play).
So, if I'm understanding it correctly, there's two assumptions being made...That the two dozen games more or less are an impulse buy and that down the line there will be at least some regrets of those two dozen games. But what if there's not?
And that's the problem I'm seeing, every argument is based on assumptions or misconceptions. Assuming that people don't know what they're buying, that they underestimate the risk, that expectations are for innovative and ground breaking games. A belief that there's nothing but sub par games. A belief that every gamer should want top shelf games (some people, like myself, actually shoot for the "Strong 7" games because those innovative 10's never see play).
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28 Feb 2015 10:11 #198536
by Shellhead
This part isn't an assumption. If you believe that you truly know what you're going to get from each and every Kickstarter that you backed, you are kidding yourself. Some of these games will live up to the promises of the initial Kickstarter. Some will never get finished. Some will eventually arrive but prove to be disappointing. This is not speculation, this what has actually happened to people who have backed Kickstarter projects. So don't kid yourself. You're buying a concept that may or may not eventually turn into a game in your possession. And aside from possible shill reviews posted on a given Kickstarter, you are betting your money on an unreviewed product that will be created by people who generally lack experience in production and distribution.
Replied by Shellhead on topic The Kickstarter Effect
VonTush wrote: Assuming that people don't know what they're buying...
This part isn't an assumption. If you believe that you truly know what you're going to get from each and every Kickstarter that you backed, you are kidding yourself. Some of these games will live up to the promises of the initial Kickstarter. Some will never get finished. Some will eventually arrive but prove to be disappointing. This is not speculation, this what has actually happened to people who have backed Kickstarter projects. So don't kid yourself. You're buying a concept that may or may not eventually turn into a game in your possession. And aside from possible shill reviews posted on a given Kickstarter, you are betting your money on an unreviewed product that will be created by people who generally lack experience in production and distribution.
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28 Feb 2015 10:55 #198537
by Michael Barnes
Replied by Michael Barnes on topic The Kickstarter Effect
I would imagine that a person's willingness to defend/excuse/justify Kickstarter is directly proportional to the amount of money they've got tied up in campaigns.
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28 Feb 2015 11:15 - 28 Feb 2015 11:21 #198538
by ubarose
This is the bit that really surprised me. A couple of backers for Space Cadets: Away Missions started a Facebook fan page. It has 75 members now. So that community is something they got over and above the actual product. Al's a bit flabbergasted by this*, but I pointed out to him that he's in there almost every day now talking to these dudes, listening to their ideas, and liking their posts. That's valuable to them.
*Actually Al's flabbergasted that the project funded at all. We are just as confused about what motived people to back it when it was clear that the game is one version or another would be available at retail in 6 months whether the KS funded or not.
Replied by ubarose on topic The Kickstarter Effect
jpat wrote: Part of the Kickstarter appeal is the KS process itself over and above any actual product. This appeal is many sided and includes (1) a real or false sense of community around a game (or other product), (2) a sense of being an insider when most are on the outside
This is the bit that really surprised me. A couple of backers for Space Cadets: Away Missions started a Facebook fan page. It has 75 members now. So that community is something they got over and above the actual product. Al's a bit flabbergasted by this*, but I pointed out to him that he's in there almost every day now talking to these dudes, listening to their ideas, and liking their posts. That's valuable to them.
*Actually Al's flabbergasted that the project funded at all. We are just as confused about what motived people to back it when it was clear that the game is one version or another would be available at retail in 6 months whether the KS funded or not.
Last edit: 28 Feb 2015 11:21 by ubarose.
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28 Feb 2015 12:37 #198544
by VonTush
Likely because people willing to tie money up in KS don't have a negative attitude towards it.
So yes, that is a very probable theory.
Replied by VonTush on topic The Kickstarter Effect
Michael Barnes wrote: I would imagine that a person's willingness to defend/excuse/justify Kickstarter is directly proportional to the amount of money they've got tied up in campaigns.
Likely because people willing to tie money up in KS don't have a negative attitude towards it.
So yes, that is a very probable theory.
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28 Feb 2015 12:47 #198545
by VonTush
Maybe I'm lucky to bat 1.000 then?
Early on I would have agreed with a lot of what you said. But much like KS campaigns have evolved so have the consumer's demand for material prior to the conclusion. I'm not worried about KS in the past, I'm talking more about it's current state and moving forward. If we take Ghostbusters for example, CZE has now posted images for the majority of all the tiles, two videos showing people playing the game (non-employees so a playtest group), primer rules, the campaign launched with four Ghostbusters revealed, they have said they'll be posting the scenario book, one can assume that rules will be posted prior to the conclusion. Prior to Space Cadets ending there were rules, virtually all the components and a play video. Every campaign that I look at, which grated, I don't follow all, but they've all provided enough content to get a very solid feel about how the game plays.
The only thing missing would be something that, to be honest, I've found less and less value in, which is reviews.
To be blunt, were Barnes to review Ghostbusters, I'd find the review irrelevant. He's in a different place and has different demands of games than I do at this point in time.
Replied by VonTush on topic The Kickstarter Effect
Shellhead wrote:
VonTush wrote: Assuming that people don't know what they're buying...
This part isn't an assumption. If you believe that you truly know what you're going to get from each and every Kickstarter that you backed, you are kidding yourself. Some of these games will live up to the promises of the initial Kickstarter. Some will never get finished. Some will eventually arrive but prove to be disappointing. This is not speculation, this what has actually happened to people who have backed Kickstarter projects. So don't kid yourself. You're buying a concept that may or may not eventually turn into a game in your possession. And aside from possible shill reviews posted on a given Kickstarter, you are betting your money on an unreviewed product that will be created by people who generally lack experience in production and distribution.
Maybe I'm lucky to bat 1.000 then?
Early on I would have agreed with a lot of what you said. But much like KS campaigns have evolved so have the consumer's demand for material prior to the conclusion. I'm not worried about KS in the past, I'm talking more about it's current state and moving forward. If we take Ghostbusters for example, CZE has now posted images for the majority of all the tiles, two videos showing people playing the game (non-employees so a playtest group), primer rules, the campaign launched with four Ghostbusters revealed, they have said they'll be posting the scenario book, one can assume that rules will be posted prior to the conclusion. Prior to Space Cadets ending there were rules, virtually all the components and a play video. Every campaign that I look at, which grated, I don't follow all, but they've all provided enough content to get a very solid feel about how the game plays.
The only thing missing would be something that, to be honest, I've found less and less value in, which is reviews.
To be blunt, were Barnes to review Ghostbusters, I'd find the review irrelevant. He's in a different place and has different demands of games than I do at this point in time.
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28 Feb 2015 13:38 - 28 Feb 2015 13:39 #198546
by ubarose
This is totally true. KS has evolved. For many campaigns there is more information about the game in a more accessible format then there are for games currently available at retail. For many new gamers, KS is what BGG was to people shopping for board games 10 years ago. The big difference is that KS has better interface, a mobile app, less board gamer elitism, direct access to the publisher/designer, and less bullshit in the forum. Publishers are realizing this. I think we are going to see more publishers leveraging KS the way they do BGG.
Replied by ubarose on topic The Kickstarter Effect
VonTush wrote:
Shellhead wrote:
VonTush wrote: Assuming that people don't know what they're buying...
This part isn't an assumption. If you believe that you truly know what you're going to get from each and every Kickstarter that you backed, you are kidding yourself. Some of these games will live up to the promises of the initial Kickstarter. Some will never get finished. Some will eventually arrive but prove to be disappointing. This is not speculation, this what has actually happened to people who have backed Kickstarter projects. So don't kid yourself. You're buying a concept that may or may not eventually turn into a game in your possession. And aside from possible shill reviews posted on a given Kickstarter, you are betting your money on an unreviewed product that will be created by people who generally lack experience in production and distribution.
Maybe I'm lucky to bat 1.000 then?
Early on I would have agreed with a lot of what you said. But much like KS campaigns have evolved so have the consumer's demand for material prior to the conclusion. I'm not worried about KS in the past, I'm talking more about it's current state and moving forward. If we take Ghostbusters for example, CZE has now posted images for the majority of all the tiles, two videos showing people playing the game (non-employees so a playtest group), primer rules, the campaign launched with four Ghostbusters revealed, they have said they'll be posting the scenario book, one can assume that rules will be posted prior to the conclusion. Prior to Space Cadets ending there were rules, virtually all the components and a play video. Every campaign that I look at, which grated, I don't follow all, but they've all provided enough content to get a very solid feel about how the game plays.
The only thing missing would be something that, to be honest, I've found less and less value in, which is reviews.
To be blunt, were Barnes to review Ghostbusters, I'd find the review irrelevant. He's in a different place and has different demands of games than I do at this point in time.
This is totally true. KS has evolved. For many campaigns there is more information about the game in a more accessible format then there are for games currently available at retail. For many new gamers, KS is what BGG was to people shopping for board games 10 years ago. The big difference is that KS has better interface, a mobile app, less board gamer elitism, direct access to the publisher/designer, and less bullshit in the forum. Publishers are realizing this. I think we are going to see more publishers leveraging KS the way they do BGG.
Last edit: 28 Feb 2015 13:39 by ubarose.
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28 Feb 2015 15:00 #198550
by stoic
Replied by stoic on topic The Kickstarter Effect
Is Kickstarter evolving into an Internet version of a slick Infomercial? Anyone remember all of those unused and extremely overpriced Soloflex rubber band exercise gyms, Nordic Track ski exercise systems, and Total Gyms that were sold? They were sold on tv for an emotionally driven overinflated value and then often dumped at their lower real market price in the downstream aftermarket--they all made great clothing racks in most homes. I suppose that marketing and consumer psychology really work on just about every type of product. I'm just waiting for a Kickstarter game to be celebrity endorsed by Chuck Norris.
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28 Feb 2015 20:28 - 28 Feb 2015 20:32 #198558
by SuperflyPete
I don't think that's true. I like the idea of the site and the model - in my mind it's merely a Pxxxx$ versus a Pxxx preordering system. I like the fact that instead of having to be vetted with publishers who may or may not be turned off by a particular game, theme, etc, you can tell them to fuck themselves and be a real-life entrepreneur. What I DON'T like is that business guys and idea guys are not often the same thing, so you're stuck with the worst of the bunch in many cases. Coolminiornot is a notable exception.
I've backed 3 games, I think. One is Al's, one is Matt's (read: MIA), and one is Uncle Mike's (Strange Aeons). I don't believe I've backed any other games. What I'd like to see is more companies doing their own P500 type systems AS WELL as Kickstarter entrepreneurs doing that, because I get the best of both worlds. If Z-Man, for instance, did P500, it would save 20% off the top in fees that aren't going to an entity that simply provides a forum and payment system with no real value. On the flipside, guys like Nate Hayden could use it to get more support and make really high quality games en masse without having seed money to start a full fledged publishing company.
If I could imagine a "perfect" model, I'd see a brand that focuses SOLELY on board games, and that manages the project with the creator so that you can get your game made, but it will be done by professionals. The design firm does the design, art, et cetera and the imaginary funding firm does the legwork such as distribution, shipping, and payment coordination. Really, if a guy like James Mathe were to start GameStarter.com, sort of like GameSalute but with professionalism and skill, and ties to distribution like Alliance, that would be a million dollar business. Shit, maybe I should get some investors and a consultant and do that. It's just too fucking easy a model to make work considering how successful IndieGoGo and Kickstarter has been. All you need is a credit card portal and some China contacts, and you're fucking Gol-Den.
It would be a GREAT retirement project for Zev. Hint, Hint.
Replied by SuperflyPete on topic The Kickstarter Effect
Michael Barnes wrote: I would imagine that a person's willingness to defend/excuse/justify Kickstarter is directly proportional to the amount of money they've got tied up in campaigns.
I don't think that's true. I like the idea of the site and the model - in my mind it's merely a Pxxxx$ versus a Pxxx preordering system. I like the fact that instead of having to be vetted with publishers who may or may not be turned off by a particular game, theme, etc, you can tell them to fuck themselves and be a real-life entrepreneur. What I DON'T like is that business guys and idea guys are not often the same thing, so you're stuck with the worst of the bunch in many cases. Coolminiornot is a notable exception.
I've backed 3 games, I think. One is Al's, one is Matt's (read: MIA), and one is Uncle Mike's (Strange Aeons). I don't believe I've backed any other games. What I'd like to see is more companies doing their own P500 type systems AS WELL as Kickstarter entrepreneurs doing that, because I get the best of both worlds. If Z-Man, for instance, did P500, it would save 20% off the top in fees that aren't going to an entity that simply provides a forum and payment system with no real value. On the flipside, guys like Nate Hayden could use it to get more support and make really high quality games en masse without having seed money to start a full fledged publishing company.
If I could imagine a "perfect" model, I'd see a brand that focuses SOLELY on board games, and that manages the project with the creator so that you can get your game made, but it will be done by professionals. The design firm does the design, art, et cetera and the imaginary funding firm does the legwork such as distribution, shipping, and payment coordination. Really, if a guy like James Mathe were to start GameStarter.com, sort of like GameSalute but with professionalism and skill, and ties to distribution like Alliance, that would be a million dollar business. Shit, maybe I should get some investors and a consultant and do that. It's just too fucking easy a model to make work considering how successful IndieGoGo and Kickstarter has been. All you need is a credit card portal and some China contacts, and you're fucking Gol-Den.
It would be a GREAT retirement project for Zev. Hint, Hint.
Last edit: 28 Feb 2015 20:32 by SuperflyPete.
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28 Feb 2015 21:10 - 28 Feb 2015 21:31 #198559
by Sagrilarus
No, not every argument is based on assumptions and misconceptions. There's been plenty of arguments made that strike me as factually based and well-reasoned in both directions.
I don't have a problem with people buying on Kickstarter, I have myself. But, I had played the beta version of the game I bought on Kickstarter prior to backing, so I had a good understanding of what I was getting into. I'm encouraging a seasoned publisher to start one right now.
The issue I have with Kickstarter is that it is becoming a better crafted advertising platform with each passing day. You can sell the hell out of good product with it, you can sell the hell out of bad product with it. The seller has a single, well controlled channel that often is the only source of detail on the subject matter. For some it's not, and that's good, but for plenty the "trailer" and the pretty pictures on the Kickstarter page are all you have and often it's very slicky and not very informative. I hate slicky.
Virtually none will have as much information as will be out when the game is in the marketplace, generally for cheaper.
Throw in that people seem pretty damn irrational about getting one additional plastic guy and you have, like stoic said above, an infomercial. I'd be curious to hear Buonocore's opinion on Kickstarter in hindsight, when he ran a campaign with zero exclusive content and a reasonable asking price on a known product with significant independent endorsement, only to have it flounder until he added an exclusive item. It's like the secret sauce in a Big Mac. It just makes sense to do it that way, because that's what drives the sales.
S.
Replied by Sagrilarus on topic The Kickstarter Effect
VonTush wrote: And that's the problem I'm seeing, every argument is based on assumptions or misconceptions.
No, not every argument is based on assumptions and misconceptions. There's been plenty of arguments made that strike me as factually based and well-reasoned in both directions.
I don't have a problem with people buying on Kickstarter, I have myself. But, I had played the beta version of the game I bought on Kickstarter prior to backing, so I had a good understanding of what I was getting into. I'm encouraging a seasoned publisher to start one right now.
The issue I have with Kickstarter is that it is becoming a better crafted advertising platform with each passing day. You can sell the hell out of good product with it, you can sell the hell out of bad product with it. The seller has a single, well controlled channel that often is the only source of detail on the subject matter. For some it's not, and that's good, but for plenty the "trailer" and the pretty pictures on the Kickstarter page are all you have and often it's very slicky and not very informative. I hate slicky.
Virtually none will have as much information as will be out when the game is in the marketplace, generally for cheaper.
Throw in that people seem pretty damn irrational about getting one additional plastic guy and you have, like stoic said above, an infomercial. I'd be curious to hear Buonocore's opinion on Kickstarter in hindsight, when he ran a campaign with zero exclusive content and a reasonable asking price on a known product with significant independent endorsement, only to have it flounder until he added an exclusive item. It's like the secret sauce in a Big Mac. It just makes sense to do it that way, because that's what drives the sales.
S.
Last edit: 28 Feb 2015 21:31 by Sagrilarus.
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