The Last Jedi - Full Spoilers

Black Barney wrote: I'm okay with it. I think the problem is that they've created a MASSIVE plot hole if we don't see this tactic exploited or dealt with in the next movie. It's obviously the Rebellion's personal little Death Star so this better not get ignored by EITHER side.

That's the problem.

No, it's worse than this. It's clear from the scene on the bridge of the Imperial ship that the officers can see what's about to happen, and they start to panic. That means this maeuver is obivous enough to be immediately apparent to all involved. Which means it can't possibly have not been used before, somewhere.

Now, I'm not going down this rabbit hole because I'm happy to take an awesome movie moment over consistancy. However, apparently in Star Wars canon it's already established that very large craft - and only large craft - have a hyperspace "shadow" that can damage things in the real world. That may explain part of the rarity of this tactic: it doesn't work with small ships, so there's a big opportunity cost involved here.

It doesn't explain, though, why forces through history haven't used it with large ships when outnumbered. And this has happened before in the SW universe - the big fleet battles at the end of Return of the Jedi and Rogue One would seem obvious candidates. Why didn't the hammerhead coverette in R1 do this, for example, instead of ramming the Star Destroyer?

And then ... droids. We know droids can be pilots - IG-88 was a pilot, for example. And we also know that droids have no rights or moral status in the SW universe other than that their owners or companions invest in them - this is all also canon. So for a relatively wealthy and morally bankrupt force ... such as the Empire or the First Order ... destroying targets via hyperspace ram would seem to be an incredibly attractive option.

I will repeat I don't particularly care about any of this. But if you want to debate the issue, it's certainly an issue.

I always thought that anything flying through hyperspace (regardless of the size of the vessel) could collide with whatever is not in hyperspace. This is why they need to calculate the jump to warp speed via computers and using navigation skills. Han even talks about this in Episode IV saying they could hit an asteroid or whatever.

Still, it never occurred to me to use it as a weapon.

Honestly, having Holdo stay behind instead of a droid bothers me a heck of a lot more than her attack maneuver.

Anyway, here's my explanation of how Holdo's attack worked. She took a giant ship, pointed it towards another giant ship, fired up the hyperdrive for momentum, and rammed into it before entering hyperspace. However, it was the giant ship slamming into Snoke's ship really fast that did the damage NOT the fact it was entering hyperspace or using its hyperdrive. The partial hyperspace entry just made it look cool.
This is not a normally usable tactic as you have to get your ship real close. She was close because Hux ignored her to go after the shuttles. Also, if she pointed her ship at a planet it would just be a giant ship crashing into a planet as the planet's gravity would prevent the ship from entering hyperspace at all per SW lore. So its not a substitute for a death star.

charlest wrote: I always thought that anything flying through hyperspace (regardless of the size of the vessel) could collide with whatever is not in hyperspace. This is why they need to calculate the jump to warp speed via computers and using navigation skills. Han even talks about this in Episode IV saying they could hit an asteroid or whatever.

Still, it never occurred to me to use it as a weapon.

I still stand by the assertion that a massive shell of a ship, loaded with asteroids and a big ass fuel tank, could be the most powerful weapon in the universe.

That said, we watched Death Star I take out Alderaan, and then Death Star II had to literally orbit Endor to get into firing position to hit the rebel base..............when it could of fired at the planet at any time, completely obliterating it. So, the "light speed bomb" is par for the course. Nothing in the world makes sense. How can Han say that the Falcon can go 0.5 past lightspeed, yet travel interstellar distances in hours, not months? How can 3PO say that surviving asteroid fields are like 0.004% likely yet nobody ever hits them, ever, unless they're in a TIE fighter?

Star Wars is like porn. You just kind of have to accept that it's entertainment, and in real life, nobody will ever use their tongue as a jizzmop on another person's rectum....or decide to put a gazillion dollar death star at risk by waiting to hit a quarter mile stretch of planet from orbit knowing that when they do fire, it won't matter where it hits because

- Laser swords, WTF is up w/that shit
- Bad guy is all in black, there's a princess rescue, good guy rogue is named "Solo"- SHIT IS CORNY AF
- Terrible attempts at comedy- "scruffy looking nerf herder", "laser brain"
- Space Nazis, I mean come on that is on the nose isn't it, SJW nonsense
- Like anyone in space would listen to that silly space jazz played by the aliens
- "Only imperial stormtroopers are so precise" and then they miss by like ten feet every time
- The force=soft headed new age hippy magic- this shit is not SF
- Luke is WHINY
- Does Princess Leia's hair come in an 8 pack for the cookout
- On Yavin IV, how does that dude get up in that treestand, there is no visible ladder.
- Why didn't <<X>> <<Y>> when <<Z>> was happening
- Way too long, they could have cut out the whole scene with Han Solo talking to Jabba the Hutt
- Chewbacca doesn't get a medal because RACISM
- How is Obi-Wan this great Jedi warrior but he fights like an old man with about two weeks worth of Kendo lessons
BONUS
- What is up with the green hobbit that lives in the swamp, far too whimsical for Star Wars. Then he spoon feeds all of this stuff about the Force to us, forcing soft headed hippy new age agendas down our throats.
- Han Solo says "I'll see you in hell". How about when Anakin asks if Padme is an angel? FAN THEORY - DOES THIS MEAN THAT STAR WARS HAS A SHARED UNIVERSE WITH THE BIBLE?????
- Why didn't Darth Vader come down and stomp on the Ewok village with an AT-AT and then it show graphic decapitations with that "Let the bodies hit the flo' " song playing?
- Poe Dameron is clearly a homosexual- he continually calls the black character "Buddy" which implies a homosexual, interracial relationship
- Laura Dern's purple hair also suggests lesbianism and diaper-wearing lefty agendas.
- When <<X>> <<Y>>ed, why didn't <<Z>> << blah blah>>

Is that original Barnes or is that all lifted from somewhere? Some of that stuff is comic genius, lol. I loved it

SJW none sense and Leias cookout hair eight pack are great

Really, talking about science and war strategy in SW is a moot point.

There's no way you can path your travel for light years distance withour hitting a single space dust when you have such poor navigation tools that detecting escape through light space requires a highly specialized equipment. Distance and logistics are never discussed nor br an issue unless plot dictates otherwise.

SW, like soap operas, has always been about characters. TLJ has those in spades. It's just some people insisting that SW technology makes sense without realizing it's 1 + 1 = 4.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the sci-fi elements. But they're just for entertainment, not scrutiny.

Black Barney wrote: Is that original Barnes or is that all lifted from somewhere? Some of that stuff is comic genius, lol. I loved it

SJW none sense and Leias cookout hair eight pack are great

To be fair, her hair was influenced heavily by the classic hit Hot Cross Buns

I just saw it and I liked it, but I got the feeling half way through that they had four people write four different scripts, and then decided to use all of them instead of picking one. I could see an extended version of this film where they flesh out some of the stuff they ran through in a hurry. Not sure I want to see it, but I can see how it would be there. I'm curious how long the first drafts were on the film. I'd wager it ran even longer.

I don't get up-tighty about the tech. The Leia-back-from-the-dead scene is fine technically (it's Star Wars) but it cuts the legs out from under the scene that preceded it, a pretty dramatic moment in Kylo Ren's emotional journey. From a story-telling perspective it was clumsy. I found myself thinking, "ok, we rewind that because none of it matters and Kylo Ren probably knew that, and not pulling the trigger meant nothing." Had they killed her at that moment . . . damn. That would have been dramatic. That would have had emotional impact. That would have been the take-away moment in the film.

The "I've changed my hair" line was just so damn brother-sister that it was perfect. Someone over the age of 25 wrote that, a nice change from the usual Hollywood drivel.

Half a dozen plot holes, about par for the course.

I was so damn hoping for a sword of dancing in the big sword fight scene. That would have been a major call out to nerds everywhere. No luck. Liked the throw though, and it moved the plot forward.

As for the one guy's stammer that someone complained about earlier in the thread. The fact that a major film presented someone with a speech impediment is a pretty solid step forward, even if he turns out to be a self-dealing SOB. There were a lot of checklists for this film, and the diversity checklist may have been the longest. Heck, some of the characters weren't even pretty. (It's like they selected based on acting talent instead.) I think that's going to be one of the take-aways from this film long term, that it was inclusive. You can take that as a net positive or negative as you please, but I'm surprised the Fox News crew isn't working up a plot-line over it. This is the kind of thing they use for branding, and I don't think I've caught any wind of it.

Hey, I just realized we're only four months away from the Han Solo movie. That's coming right up.

Black Barney wrote: Hey, I just realized we're only four months away from the Han Solo movie. That's coming right up.

We're about a year away from a Marvel movie premiering on 1st and 3rd Fridays, a Star Wars movie on 2nd and 4th Fridays.

Sagrilarus wrote:

Black Barney wrote: Hey, I just realized we're only four months away from the Han Solo movie. That's coming right up.

We're about a year away from a Marvel movie premiering on 1st and 3rd Fridays, a Star Wars movie on 2nd and 4th Fridays.

And then when we all watch them in our living rooms on the Disney streaming network, it'll be like "TV".

I've tried to rationalize the lightspeed ram in other forums, but I think it is ultimately just a canon change to how hyperspace was theorized to work in the EU. The new writers don't care about EU canon (which is why they publicly dumped it) so we now have stuff like jumping to lightspeed inside of atmospheres (seen in Rogue One and I think in TLJ) which really makes a lot of the stuff seen in older films kinda silly (like why the Falcon had to run out in front of Star Destroyers in ESB and find out their lightspeed engine was out instead of just doing it from atmo). But we've never really seen a good case for lightspeed ramming to date. Little fighters probably couldn't dent the Death Star (since the E=MC2 equation wasn't followed in TLJ (a kilometer sized ship at near lightspeed would have created a much larger explosion), Death Star II was protected by a shield and those cruisers were full of people, unlikely to want to suicide jump even in the face of Star Destroyers and the DSII cannon, no ship was big enough to take out Starkiller Base, and in the prequels we see more evenly matched fights. So Holdo was in a "one in a million" situation. She had an empty capital ship, little to no chance of saving her fleeing crew, and the FO dropped a huge, fat, slow ship right in front of her. Presumably even a Star Destroyer, once they saw she was planning a jump, could maneuver out of the way, but the Supremacy is 60 km wide and, in Star Wars physics, slow as molasses.

So I've come to embrace the Holdo maneuver, despite the fact that I think the writers wasted a brilliant opportunity to have Admiral Ackbar do it instead of Holdo (with a nice "Snoke, IT'S A TRAP" line prior to death) and even retcon Leia to be on the ship, critically injured after her space walk. That wraps up Leia nicely and leaves Holdo to lead the Resistance. Now we are stuck with Poe and an absent Leia (gotta think she will die off-screen in the crawl of ep9). The little scene with Luke and Leia, nice as it was, could almost be a Luke vision when she suicides into Snoke or just a dream he has, wrapped in CGI smoke to erase the salt plain base, while she is in recovery.

I just wish the casino scene would have been cut, more thought put into the chase and the initial battle (having all the bombers get wiped out in essentially friendly fire was maddening, even in WW2 we had the concept of safe distance to arm bombs), the Luke stuff was repetitive anyway, and Finn could still have gotten his moment of glory against the ram cannon. Heck, given how sloppy the rest of the film is, I would have bought that he had a "janitor code" that allowed a very small package through the Supremacy shields (since he apparently served in her). It probably even makes sense that such a thing would exist, low level officers would always be trying to circumvent draconic FO regulations and allow for a little bit of black market smuggling to get in hootch and Arcturian poontang, so he could have jumped right over with Rose and BB-8 and a random unscrupulus Resistance member (makes sense that some would be less than holy noble and might cash out).

Don't get too pedantic about the physics of it all. TIEs make noise as the "swooosh" by the bridge window, anything bigger than a proton moving at those speeds would destroy the planet, LASER SWORDS, &c. I feel like STAR WARS fandom is best served by not explaining these things. They don't make sense in our local galaxy.

If the laser swords thing doesn’t squash all navel-gazing about Star Wars...

Why does everyone speak English, and if they don’t they understand it?