Ogre...Kickstarter...you in?

ehanuise wrote: Completion compulsion at its finest
I'd like to have them all as well, but honestly, if one's missing... so be it. There's plenty of game in the box already.

Yea, I've *always* had a profound weakness for expansions and promo items--variant and errata counters for wargames, usually found in long-OOP issues of some magazine are always tops on my "gotta catch 'em all" list. Unlike most addicts, I don't deny my problem; I *embrace* mine...Hell, I've built it a comfortable little room all its own with comfy furniture and lots of natural light so it can grow and flourish. (Though my wife is now talking about scaling back on work to spend more time with Der Kinderspawn, so I'm thinking this year is going to be the last where I can indulge my hobbies without much budget analysis first).

Besides, aren't you "Mr. Flatlined Games"? I'm thinking you should also embrace and monetize this weakness of mine and do up a small bonus sheet of real counters for the "Dragon Rage: Bunny of Death" Easter special. While you're at it, if you'd be so kind as to retrieve my left arm from your postal service and ship it back with whatever your next game is, I'd appreciate it. I'll see if I can't figure out how to return the favor for you if you're buying the Ogre KS package

More seriously, as mentioned before, I do still play Ogre/GEV, so bonus material would likely, depending on what's on the damn sheet, actually get used. The Nihon stuff and FireMountain Games' campaign kit would get played. BGG's terrain overlays probably would depending on what's on there [bridges, water, and some winter terrain would be extremely nice, especially if they do a Battlesuit set in the same vein as the 1" counter bonus Ogre set down the road, which I think is a real possibility...]. Ogre variants and "flat Ogres"? Yea, probably [especially flat Ogres--I'm a klutz and thus not compatible with "standup" units like the "leader counters" GMT often includes. I can't see knocking these models over, but I'm sure I can find a way--it's one of my Jedi skills, after all]. The Vatican stuff? If it doesn't come with dedicated scenarios and is just a set of standard units in purple? Eh, now THAT would be just completism in action. I'm hoping, actually, that there will be some horse-trading of those sheets down the road; though I suspect it will be dominated by the "straight to ebay" crowd...

Dogmatix wrote: Besides, aren't you "Mr. Flatlined Games"? I'm thinking you should also embrace and monetize this weakness of mine and do up a small bonus sheet of real counters for the "Dragon Rage: Bunny of Death" Easter special.

Yup, it's me. I'd love to, but at the moment I'm building up cash to pay for the new Essen release, so anything else it out of the question. Flatlined Games is just me, financing the games stuff with my real job (business analysis consulting), and I (foolishly but proudly) am totally self financed. No bank loan, no obligations, but no boatload of cash to do cool stuff (yet) either. Hopefully so, over a couple year it'll be a profitable enough business that I can live off it and start doing cool things like printing that kind of goodies.

Dogmatix wrote: While you're at it, if you'd be so kind as to retrieve my left arm from your postal service and ship it back with whatever your next game is, I'd appreciate it. I'll see if I can't figure out how to return the favor for you if you're buying the Ogre KS package

I'd love to but I'm impaired, having left a leg and hand in the Ogre KS shipping fees to europe ($191, yikes!) ^^

Kidding apart, I'm hard at work on the next release, involving robots, gems, Belgian designer Philippe Keyarts and talented artist Kwanchai Moriya, which draws great robots. And gems. And a Naming contest.

Yea, the international shipping is just scary. I really think SJG had absolutely no concept of the demand, let alone international demand, this thing would generate. "35 year-old game in a box the size and weight of a small dog? Who the hell is going to buy this thing? ... Oh. Well, uh...hrm. We'll get back to you on this."

I wish I had thought about this previously, though. For the handful of international FA:Tties interested, I suspect I could have had an order sent to me and opened up the package, punched it to reduce some weight, and re-sealed it to re-ship. I'd at least then be able to mark the customs form "Used board game/gift $49." The problem, ultimately, is going to be the size of the box itself as USPS is utterly unforgiving when it comes to oversized packages.

When it hits retail distribution, I may be able to do this for a couple of FA:Tties that are are unable to buy locally. Shipping will still be a big number, but it may actually be cheaper to buy in the US and ship depending on the currency and exchange rate at the time.

On an unrelated note, looking forward to seeing more on your new game--that sounds like it should be both entertaining and a bit goofy. Is Noble Knight going to be in on this one too? (I'm happy to send monies to YOU, but, echoing the sentiments of any number of international geeks looking at US-only distribution systems, your postal service can bite my shiny metal ass. )

Edit: Hrm, robots pushing each other around for shiny objects? Is "Bite My Shiny Metal Ass" taken? Shame that licensing cost for an image of Futurama's Bender would likely be crippling. I also wonder how many entries for "Gem-blow" you'll get...

Dogmatix wrote: I really think SJG had absolutely no concept of the demand, let alone international demand, this thing would generate. "35 year-old game in a box the size and weight of a small dog? Who the hell is going to buy this thing? ... Oh. Well, uh...hrm. We'll get back to you on this."

SJG had more than one critical fail in their little KS adventure. In some ways, they were just utterly without a clue.

But their enthusiasm, the high level of communication, and their willingness to admit mistakes really helped them out.

That KS starter project was like the spanish inquisition : no-one can prepare for that
They run after it all the way, but they did a fantastic job of catching up. And you can be sure the car wars KS will be quite different in that aspect.

ehanuise wrote: And you can be sure the car wars KS will be quite different in that aspect.

Too right. SJ is a pretty smart guy, and a guy whose name is also the name of the business. There's no doubt he's a bit embarrassed on a personal level by some of the fumbles in the Ogre project.

I expect the CW project to have clearly defined U.S. and international shipping costs, more spaced-out stretch goals, and better KS-exclusive items. And a better overall sense of organization, of course.

TheDukester wrote:

ehanuise wrote: And you can be sure the car wars KS will be quite different in that aspect.

Too right. SJ is a pretty smart guy, and a guy whose name is also the name of the business. There's no doubt he's a bit embarrassed on a personal level by some of the fumbles in the Ogre project.

I expect the CW project to have clearly defined U.S. and international shipping costs, more spaced-out stretch goals, and better KS-exclusive items. And a better overall sense of organization, of course.

The interesting part will be what they settle on as "Car Wars" for that one. As I mentioned before, the game system took a lot of 90-degree turns along the way and, depending on when you came into/left it, you'll have a very different idea of what it should look like. Ogre, on the other hand, only had one consumer input: Uh...MORE IS GOOOOOOOD! With a small number tacking "Ogrethulu please" and "What about the minis?!" on the side, like a dipping sauce.

He's incredibly smart to get consumer input via that private forum, but it will be interesting what the end result will be. I'm thrilled as hell that Ogre will be a "product line" again, at least for a while, but Car Wars could have some more serious legs as a long-running, expanded line of games and supplements depending on what this first product looks like. That's kind of a different animal when compared to Ogre.

But, yea, I do think they'll be a hell of a lot smarter for the next one. I do like the way they just constantly fed the surveys out and took in the market research data [and called it such]. I bet that, along with the lessons SJG learned the hard way, were well worth the sleepless nights.

News:

In Ogre Kickstarter update #42, designer/publisher Steve Jackson writes: "It appears that the total print run will be more than 10,000. So, thanks to your support, we'll be printing more than three times as many as we originally planned to. That includes over 5,500 directly through Kickstarter, and distributor orders of more than 150% of the best pre-Kickstarter estimates."

So, if you want it, you can get it. And considering the online FLGS pricing...you'll get it cheaper than the Kickstarters.

And that's why I hate Kickstarter as a business model rather than a P500 system.

P500 isn't cheaper than online discounters either. I don't see much of a difference between Kickstarter and a traditional P500, other than when your card is billed.

S.

I always thought a P500 was that when the orders hit 500, they print 500 of them for the established base. If that's erroneous, then I have to concur with you; there really isn't a difference.

I guess then I hate both models equally.

SuperflyTNT wrote: I always thought a P500 was that when the orders hit 500, they print 500 of them for the established base. If that's erroneous, then I have to concur with you; there really isn't a difference.

I guess then I hate both models equally.

Nope, when it hits 500, it's guanateed a spot in the print queue. GMT usually waits until it hits 700+ to schedule the print [but few of their games that hit 500 stall before hitting 700] and then they run x number of copies. MSample has had pretty good insight into print runs for a number of the publishers in the past, so he can probably quote chapter and verse as far as the numbers go; but I seem to recall that GMT was in the 2,500-5,000 copy range depending on the game. Twilight Struggle print runs have been on the high end of 5k+ while something like the East Front Series games was on the lower end.

Also, I think GMT is the only one that sets the Pxx at a flat 500. MMP has odd numbers for every game, so they may set it at whatever the "it goes to print" number is. I think Decision Games' Pledge System is more opaque as they seem to just take pledges for games but don't give a whole lot of insight as to where games stand. I don't pay much attention to DG due to the lack of PBEM support for most of their stuff.

But, neither MMP and GMT charge until the game is ready to ship. A couple other (predominantly) wargame companies charge when the game is at or just going to the printer (Legion does this, but Randy Wein sets his Pxx number much lower--250 or so). Few, though they're notable for either their cost (Diffraction, which is doing the new "It's Not Europa, Damnit!" games--~$350 for "Blitzkrieg" aka "We Swear It's not Fire in the East/Scorched Earth!" and nearly $550 for "Mare Nostrum" aka "We Swear It's Not War in the Desert or the 4 GDW Europa Games that Made Up That Set!") or their complete cock-ups (HMS/GRD with "Total War" aka "We Swear It IS GDW's Fire in the East!"), charge immediately. Smart money on the latter sort of publisher pre-orders games through a retailer whenever absolutely necessary as they don't hit your card and then sit. Most publishers don't count retailer pre-orders against the Pxx because they can't get that info, are too lazy, or actually need/want the cash in hand to go to print. I don't mind the Pxx systems that don't hit my card until the game exists, but I've been burned by a few "cash in hand" types and just don't go that route anymore. This is also why I generally only support well-established game publishers through Kickstarter.

(And speaking of Decision Games: with HPS working away on Aide-de-Camp 3, DG may bin what little VASSAL support is out there and go back to charging $6-$40 for ADC modules and I'll go back to ignoring their games altogether because ADC is such a tremendous piece of shit. They *have* to update it because ADC2 doesn't run on 64-bit systems at all and is buggy as fuck under Vista or later. Don't recall if they had a mac client or if they're doing one for ADC3. I'll bet anything that this is what L2 does if they ever manage to publish another game.)

I think the reason I don't like this whole notion, after much consideration, is that it puts all of the weight on the early adopters to pay full boat just to get the game printed, and then all of the people who sat back pointing and laughing get to buy it at 75% of the Kickstarter price.

I don't think it's as bad with wargame P500s, I mean it's not like GMT is going to whore C&C: Ancients out and it's not like you can get it through CoolStuff for cheap.

I guess what fucks me off is that I bought Dreadfleet for 119$ with the best of intentions, saw it a few weeks later for 79$ on CoolStuff. That fucks me off, big time. And I see this whole Kickstarter thing as precisely that: "Let's forget about quality of a game, let's just throw the spaghetti on the wall and see if it sticks. If it does, we get big margins on the front end from the early adopters (read: suckers)." Then it gets sold wholesale to distributors who then cannibalize the price down to beat out their competitors. So the only ones who pay full boat are the Kickstarters, and as a "thank you" for being anally assaulted they get a "Whizbang The Barbarian" promo card that, in the grand scheme of things, doesn't do a fucking thing to justify the price.

/end rant.

SuperflyTNT wrote: I mean it's not like GMT is going to whore C&C: Ancients out and it's not like you can get it through CoolStuff for cheap.

You go to wargamedepot instead to get the 35% discount.

"Preorder" or "P500" or "Prepub" or whatever you want to call it makes no sense from a financial perspective. For the consumer that is. For the publisher it does, and they use brinkmanship to see if they can get people to step up to the plate. "If you don't prepub you won't be able to get this game at any price."



So buyers have do decide how bad they want it. Frankly it makes the most financial sense to preorder, then cancel when you hear the map boards are due back from the printer, then purchase via the wholesale-retail delivery chain (or in the aftermarket). But that would be ungentlemanly. It would also be even more of a hassle than prepubbing.

I see Kickstarter as charity money for projects of folly, projects that make no sense financially at all but could be considered cool. Building Babbage's computing engine is an example. P500 doesn't quite fit that definition since it's much more quid-pro-quot. But the fallout of P500 is that you tend to get games that aren't terribly innovative or groundbreaking, because people aren't likely to order games that they aren't comfortable with. That's a tough sell based on a chat thread on Consimworld, especially when no one can find it.

S.

SuperflyTNT wrote: I think the reason I don't like this whole notion, after much consideration, is that it puts all of the weight on the early adopters to pay full boat just to get the game printed, and then all of the people who sat back pointing and laughing get to buy it at 75% of the Kickstarter price.

I don't think it's as bad with wargame P500s, I mean it's not like GMT is going to whore C&C: Ancients out and it's not like you can get it through CoolStuff for cheap.

I guess what fucks me off is that I bought Dreadfleet for 119$ with the best of intentions, saw it a few weeks later for 79$ on CoolStuff. That fucks me off, big time. And I see this whole Kickstarter thing as precisely that: "Let's forget about quality of a game, let's just throw the spaghetti on the wall and see if it sticks. If it does, we get big margins on the front end from the early adopters (read: suckers)." Then it gets sold wholesale to distributors who then cannibalize the price down to beat out their competitors. So the only ones who pay full boat are the Kickstarters, and as a "thank you" for being anally assaulted they get a "Whizbang The Barbarian" promo card that, in the grand scheme of things, doesn't do a fucking thing to justify the price.

/end rant.

That depends on the KS, though. With Ogre, if I go by the CSI price ($70) and then I add on shipping (which they have at $16- amazing if true since it is a monster box) that gets me to $86. That's $14 less than what I pay as a backer. Not a big difference, and that's assuming the shipping at CSI stays low. On top of that I get more units and cool things to throw on my map- maybe not worth $14, but not the "I got fucked for being an early adopter" feeling that you might think.

I was prepared to drop $100 when they first announced they would do this edition before they put it on KS. I see this as a bonus for me- I skip out on shipping, tax (since I'm in Texas) and I get some extra goodies thrown in.

Sagrilarus wrote: , But the fallout of P500 is that you tend to get games that aren't terribly innovative or groundbreaking, because people aren't likely to order games that they aren't comfortable with. That's a tough sell based on a chat thread on Consimworld, especially when no one can find it.

S.

Personally, I believe we would see *even less* innovation without the Pxxx system. Look at all the trouble Starkweather has with getting non-WWII IGS games published. No way no how does MMP even think of publishing them at all without some sales already in-pocket. At least now they have a shot. GMT couldn't get Leaping Lemmings to hit its number either. Though LL ended up being released to fairly wide acclaim, it only takes a couple of risky games that *don't* sell to kill a small publisher. Without *some* guarantee of sales, do we ever see another wargame about anything other than WWII East Front?