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× Talk about Eurogames here.

The Eurogames Reclamation Project hits home.

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22 Jun 2014 20:08 #180978 by dragonstout

Michael Barnes wrote: Ah, but see, "works with younger kids" is a selling point for me.

I've played it, it's simple but pretty fun. Also the first game with a VP track!

In my experience, it (Heimlich & Co.) didn't work well with even a 6ish-year-old kid, because the game is literally all about bluffing, and kids are terrrrrrrrible at bluffing.

If I remember the rules correctly, though, I'm not sure I remember why there was an actual legitimate reason to bluff...you can always see which color is winning, so the only reason not to help that color if it's not you is if you believe it's one of the two non-player colors, which is too unlikely to not just take the precaution to bash.

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23 Jun 2014 07:41 #180993 by veemonroe
Great minds think alike. I've been accidentally eurogame reclaiming for some time, mainly by accident. I've been in the hobby a couple of years, and I kept buying 'greatest hits' instead of new games. I noticed that, over time, my game collection was getting older... and older... and older. The new games left. The old games stayed behind.

I love Ameritrash, but - predominantly - I'm a social goal-orientated gamer. I want to interact with people over the board. I prefer gaming with friends. I like playing games several times, often in quick succession, and I want to feel I've *achieved* something by playing, such as building a gigantic castle or thrashing my enemies.

Modern euros are designed for (permit me to be rude) dork boys who want to get high scores, like they're playing a video game, and HATE the idea of making eye contact with another player (they'd rather fiddle with their board) never mind - woe betide - negotiating or something. And, like a video game, many of these games are a 'play three times and trade' effort. I had fun with Trajan for the first five plays because the solo mancala was mega-cool. After I got familiar with the mancala, I got to... earn victory points by placing stuff... pretty-much on my lonesome. Bleurgh.

Our recent acquisitions include I'm the Boss, Modern Art (nice Scandinavian edition), Taj Mahal, La Citta and Cosmic Encounter... Other favourites include Tigris and Euphrates. I like some newer games. I'm a huge fan of Yomi and BattleCON, for example. But, with modern stuff, I tend to slant to the wargame/Ameritrash side.
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23 Jun 2014 08:35 #180994 by stormseeker75
I picked up Oregon in a trade the other day so I'm stoked about that. Then I went to the game store and got an in-shrink Through the Desert so I'm double stoked.

I think my one game store has El Grande. I should pick that up if they still do.

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23 Jun 2014 09:43 #180997 by Gary Sax
Welcome to the site, veemonroe, nice post! You should give yourself an avatar if you have a chance, we get bombarded with lots of spambots which sometimes make people's eyes roll past non-avatared member posts.
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23 Jun 2014 12:31 #181014 by Bull Nakano

veemonroe wrote: Modern euros are designed for (permit me to be rude) dork boys who want to get high scores, like they're playing a video game, and HATE the idea of making eye contact with another player (they'd rather fiddle with their board) never mind - woe betide - negotiating or something.

I don't really think perpetrating negative stereotypes helps anyone. Gamer's as a whole have several common ones, which I'm sure you'd claim didn't apply to yourself. Who cares why people derive enjoyment from what they enjoy? Don't like the media, that's fine, but attacking the image of the people who enjoy it is pretty useless to anyone, sans maybe your own ego.

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23 Jun 2014 13:34 #181018 by ubarose

Bull Nakano wrote:

veemonroe wrote: Modern euros are designed for (permit me to be rude) dork boys who want to get high scores, like they're playing a video game, and HATE the idea of making eye contact with another player (they'd rather fiddle with their board) never mind - woe betide - negotiating or something.

I don't really think perpetrating negative stereotypes helps anyone. Gamer's as a whole have several common ones, which I'm sure you'd claim didn't apply to yourself. Who cares why people derive enjoyment from what they enjoy? Don't like the media, that's fine, but attacking the image of the people who enjoy it is pretty useless to anyone, sans maybe your own ego.


I hear where veemontoe is coming from. The head down design of a large number of modern euros forces you to act like an anti-social dork even if you aren't. I've played with with the same group of people long enough to know that when someone tells me to shut up because they are trying to calculate their turn, that it is the game that needs to be ditched, not the player.
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23 Jun 2014 13:53 #181019 by Bull Nakano
Totally. I've posted a few times about an over-analytic group I play with, and I am VERY selective when bringing games to them because I don't want to have a bad time. They love the modern Euro point optimization designs, but as deep as I'll go with them is Agricola, because I get to enjoy the card play. Games like Tzolkin or Dungeon Lords really don't speak to me and the game is miserable to get through because they (this group) play so long. I don't mind playing long games, even if they're not supposed to be that long, but I have to enjoy myself or I'm better off staying home.

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23 Jun 2014 13:54 #181020 by dragonstout

stormseeker75 wrote: I picked up Oregon in a trade the other day so I'm stoked about that. Then I went to the game store and got an in-shrink Through the Desert so I'm double stoked.

I think my one game store has El Grande. I should pick that up if they still do.

For goodness sakes, do it! Especially if you've never played before! I'd agree with Pete, best DOAM game ever.

And if they have an extra Through the Desert...I'd be interested!

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23 Jun 2014 14:39 #181028 by Michael Barnes
Might be a stereotype, but it's true.

I think a lot of games are made under the assumption that players will be playing them with strangers instead of friends or family. It's easier to go to a game convention or an event and play a game that you don't actually have to interact with anyone over. So the "heads down" Eurogame makes sense in a gaming culture that promotes going to these kinds of events and playing as many games as possible regardless of who you're playing with.

The whole "heads down" Eurogame is where the genre went wrong, with things like Princes of Florence and Goa where the "gameplay" was more about quiet contemplation and calculation then, you know, playing. Those games are such a far distance away from Heimlich and Co. and stuff like that.

Chalk me up for that TTD stockpile if there are three. It is coming back into print 3Q, apparently. But don't want to wait.
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23 Jun 2014 14:45 #181031 by san il defanso
I'm happy to hear that Through the Desert is on its way back. Now hopefully Mayfair will get off their rear ends and reprint Modern Art.

The Knizia must flow...

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24 Jun 2014 01:58 #181086 by Space Ghost
I picked up Lewis and Clark. Being a life long Missourian somewhat compels me too, also the game is gorgeous. I also bought Lords of Vegas.

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24 Jun 2014 03:02 - 24 Jun 2014 03:03 #181088 by veemonroe

Michael Barnes wrote: I think a lot of games are made under the assumption that players will be playing them with strangers instead of friends or family. It's easier to go to a game convention or an event and play a game that you don't actually have to interact with anyone over. So the "heads down" Eurogame makes sense in a gaming culture that promotes going to these kinds of events and playing as many games as possible regardless of who you're playing with.

The whole "heads down" Eurogame is where the genre went wrong, with things like Princes of Florence and Goa where the "gameplay" was more about quiet contemplation and calculation then, you know, playing. Those games are such a far distance away from Heimlich and Co. and stuff like that.


I think that's what I'm getting at. I'm not attacking individual gamers, but modern games promote a convention/club-friendly playstyle where you don't have to set social ground rules before the game or choose the right players (not the guy/gal who flips the table). The game delivers a consistent experience, which isn't affected by group dynamics. This is especially important in a world where games only get played once or twice. If players don't have fun, they invariably blame the game and don't give it a second chance. Ratings drop. Fewer games sold. Unfortunately, that leads to a design ethos of group sudoku.

I guess I sound like I'm attacking the players because, on BGG certainly, there's a strong minority feeling that that's what games *should* be like. And it's a problem if a game can flunk horribly with the wrong group. I think there needs to be an attitude that some game nights/cons will fail because not every spontaneously assembled group will work. I had a interminable game of Citadels with a player who didn't understand what was going on (bluffing and role selection with someone who plays randomly - yuck). I also had a good-but-not-great first game of Cosmic Encounter where the group made the unspoken ground rule that only solo victories counted and the bash-the-leader dragged on and on and on... It's hit and miss.

But it is possible to go to a game club and get a great game with strangers. We played Tammany Hall last night - five players, all of us new to the game, all of us strangers at the beginning of the night. It was unbelievably backstabby, noisy, funny, we laughed a lot and made lots of (non-serious) anti-Irish jokes (two Irish players). It was a self-selecting group though - we'd all signed up on Meetup to play Tammany Hall.

I disagree about Goa, by the way. Played as a two-player auction game with a 'tech tree add-on', it's great. I can see that it would get tedious if you spent five minutes on the auction, and half an hour watching people optimising the last points out of their tech trees.
Last edit: 24 Jun 2014 03:03 by veemonroe.
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24 Jun 2014 04:10 #181089 by ubarose

Michael Barnes wrote: Might be a stereotype, but it's true.

I think a lot of games are made under the assumption that players will be playing them with strangers instead of friends or family. It's easier to go to a game convention or an event and play a game that you don't actually have to interact with anyone over. So the "heads down" Eurogame makes sense in a gaming culture that promotes going to these kinds of events and playing as many games as possible regardless of who you're playing with.


I don't know if that is intententional so much as it it simply a by-product of so much of the playtesting being done at cons with random groups of strangers.
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24 Jun 2014 05:18 #181091 by veemonroe

ubarose wrote:

Michael Barnes wrote: Might be a stereotype, but it's true.

I think a lot of games are made under the assumption that players will be playing them with strangers instead of friends or family. It's easier to go to a game convention or an event and play a game that you don't actually have to interact with anyone over. So the "heads down" Eurogame makes sense in a gaming culture that promotes going to these kinds of events and playing as many games as possible regardless of who you're playing with.


I don't know if that is intententional so much as it it simply a by-product of so much of the playtesting being done at cons with random groups of strangers.


I think it's market driven, intentional or not. Gamers increasingly play a game maximum three times and then move onto the new hotness.

Imagine that I play 'Hot Game 1' and have a bad time because there's one anti-social guy who flips the table or plays randomly. I hate the game. I have a bad time. I slag off the game on BGG and give it '4'. I never play the game again. Now imagine I play 'Dull Euro 1'. Anti-social guy can't affect my game so, provided the mechanisms are fun to explore on first play, I'm going to give it '8' and tell all my friends how great it is.

There are two problems. A) The game is tedious after three plays because it relies on a cool mechanism that gets old fast. B) The only reason anti-social guy can't ruin my game is because he's playing head-down on his own board. Trajan by Stefan Feld is a brilliant example of this phenomenon.

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24 Jun 2014 07:12 #181092 by Sagrilarus
I like this V Monroe guy. Good analysis. Somebody get him an avatar so I can put an incorrect face to the voice.

S.
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