Trashdome - Marvel Heroes VS Marvel Heroscape

metalface13 wrote:

Merkles wrote:

Marvel this....Marvel that....

D.C. Comics heroes are the real deal. This Marvel crap is the bush leagues for comic books. Superman, Batman, Flash, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman...now there's a line-up worth making a game around. While I haven't been into comics for almost 20 years now (I have read some graphic novels from the library), I've never been able to understand the attraction of Marvel. D.C. Comics and their heroes make Marvel Heroes pale by comparison.

That's why people are having a hard time deciding on which game to emerge victorious from this fight!

I've never understood why anybody reads DC comics except for Batman. They're all so blah and feel so goofy.

You are right--they are kinda goofy....but that's sorta the point. Again, it may be because I'm older than most on this site and missed the great, serious comic book (ahem, graphic book) revolution, but I always read comic books for FUN. And part of fun is goofiness at times. I can't argue--I remember reading an old DC comic where it was a race between Superman and the Flash I LOVED that comic book!

Shellhead wrote:

metalface13 wrote:

I've never understood why anybody reads DC comics except for Batman. They're all so blah and feel so goofy.

You are ignoring Jonah Hex, some great work by Alan Moore, and the entire Vertigo line.

I don't include the Vertigo line or Wildstorm in my summation of DC. I also don't wrap up Icon in Marvel.

metalface13 wrote:

Shellhead wrote:

metalface13 wrote:

I've never understood why anybody reads DC comics except for Batman. They're all so blah and feel so goofy.

You are ignoring Jonah Hex, some great work by Alan Moore, and the entire Vertigo line.

I don't include the Vertigo line or Wildstorm in my summation of DC. I also don't wrap up Icon in Marvel.

Then you're still overlooking the fact that most writers and artists eventually end doing work at both companies, and that work is generally of comparable quality at both companies. DC's timeless iconic heroes have gotten tarnished in the last 20 years, while Marvel's more relatable and human heroes have drifted towards iconic after decades of convoluted continuity. The major differences between the two in the '60s have largely disappeared since then.

Michael Barnes wrote:

Who thinks about Spider-Man, Thor, Cap, or any of the Marvel characters and thinks "man, I'd like to play a pretty complicated board game with a bunch of rules about those guys".

Kids are exposed to the Marvel characters through TV, movies, and video games. The comics are written for and read by men in their 30s. Not kids.

One thing that occurs to me is that art styles evolve fairly quickly in superhero comics. The MARVEL HEROES game uses art that already looks outdated to anyone that's been keeping up with the recent comics. In a few years it will stop looking tired and old, and start looking vintage.

Further, it might be a very long time before we see another complex strategic board game based on the Marvel characters. Future Marvel board games will likely be based on the movie properties, or the animated TV shows, or whatever. This might be the last game that treats the Marvels as comic book characters.

What I'm saying is that MARVEL HEROES is a potential future classic. A rare gem. MARVEL HEROSCAPE is just HEROSCAPE. There will be other games like it.

Has Wonder Woman ever been in a good story?

"One thing that occurs to me is that art styles evolve fairly quickly in superhero comics. The MARVEL HEROES game uses art that already looks outdated to anyone that's been keeping up with the recent comics. In a few years it will stop looking tired and old, and start looking vintage."

Heh... funny you say that, and although I agree, the art on Marvel Heroes is just a bit too modern for my taste as I'm a fan of the more classic comics from the 60s and 70s. But even then, I find this doesn't bother me much, and some of the drawings do have a more classic look. Also the map, while many say is bland, really looks like it was taken from a classic comic from the 60s. I love that...

BTW, if anyone is interested, I posted a description of three fights I played today to showcase the combat system: www.boardgamegeek.com/article/3644063

Mr Skeletor wrote:

Has Wonder Woman ever been in a good story?

OK--I'll take Wonder Woman out of the equation. Other than some Justice League stories, I can't think of any. Again, I read them years ago, so.....

maka wrote:

the art on Marvel Heroes is just a bit too modern for my taste as I'm a fan of the more classic comics from the 60s and 70s. But even then, I find this doesn't bother me much, and some of the drawings do have a more classic look. Also the map, while many say is bland, really looks like it was taken from a classic comic from the 60s. I love that...

Yeah, an all Kirby and Ditko game would have been great. The map is like the old cutaway diagrams of the Baxter Building that they used to print.

I really really wish, though, that the guy that designed the map and cards knew how to letter a comic book. There are two forms of the letter "I" in comics lettering, and the game doesn't use them correctly. Most people wouldn't notice, and complaining about it is like complaining that the box is too hard to open, but it really bugs me.

Shellhead wrote:

metalface13 wrote:

Shellhead wrote:

metalface13 wrote:

I've never understood why anybody reads DC comics except for Batman. They're all so blah and feel so goofy.

You are ignoring Jonah Hex, some great work by Alan Moore, and the entire Vertigo line.

I don't include the Vertigo line or Wildstorm in my summation of DC. I also don't wrap up Icon in Marvel.

Then you're still overlooking the fact that most writers and artists eventually end doing work at both companies, and that work is generally of comparable quality at both companies. DC's timeless iconic heroes have gotten tarnished in the last 20 years, while Marvel's more relatable and human heroes have drifted towards iconic after decades of convoluted continuity. The major differences between the two in the '60s have largely disappeared since then.

Well to be honest, I don't read much in the Marvel Universe either. The continuity is convoluted beyond belief. But as a kid, I read most of the mainstream Marvel titles: X-Men, Spider-Man, Avengers, Thor, Captain America. I can't place my finger on it, but there was just something about the DC heroes I always thought were kind of doofy. I think Stan Lee did a much better job at creating heroes the average kid could relate to. Much more appealing to the prepubescent and pubescent power fantasies.

In the end I see the two as kind of like choosing between Coke and Pepsi, it all depends on what you grew up with.

Okay, I see where you're coming from. I miss the '80s, when several independent publishers were putting out great comics like Elementals, Grimjack, Jonny Quest, Mage, and Dreadstar. There are still indie publishers around, but the only indie comic that I'm still buying is Hellboy. As for the big 2, I grew up with Marvel, switched to DC in the late '80s, dropped everything in the early '90s, then came back to both DC and Marvel around 2001. In recent years, I have completely dropped Marvel due to event fatigue and general disgust with Bendis and Quesada. I still buy a couple of DC titles, but am getting really sick of Johns and Didio.

If it's not too late...

Marvel Heroes

I love it. I don't find it very complicated at all and the cards always have me trying to figure out which comic the pictures are from, which is a fun mini-game itself. The game does feel odd at times but that is part of it's charm it is completely unique (I think in a good way). The figures are awesome, the cards are cool (the board in bland and maybe unnecessary but so what) and the fights are great fun because everyone gets to take part in the battle. Heroscape is a great system mainly because of the terrain but the game itself seems a little too simple for even me, although I enjoy it and will play it at the drop of a hat because it is so appealing to look at and that does add to the enoyment but Marvel Heroes has more going on.

Where is Mad Dog? He needs to get in here and drop the hammer on one of these games before this turns into an all-out Marvel Vs. DC war.

I grew up reading mostly Marvel books. The first comic books I ever read- no shit- were the Dark Phoenix issues of X-MEN. What a way to start. I always liked Marvel's artists, writers, and characters better. That shifted when DC started doing stuff like the Moore books, THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS, LONGBOW HUNTERS, DEATH IN THE FAMILY, KILLING JOKE, et. al. and the core Marvel books drifted into badness in the late 1980s. I actually didn't like Batman all that much until I got older and understood that he was a crazy man.

I actually kind of hate modern comics art unless it's something really distinct and stylized, like a Mignola or whoever that guy was that did that cartoon-looking issue of ULTIMATE X-MEN. Is there anyone here who _won't_ dub either Kirby or Ditko as the greatest artist in comics? I'm a Kirby man myself- his stuff is still the gold standard as far as I'm concerned.

You know what we really need- SECRET WARS: THE BOARD GAME.

Michael Barnes wrote:

You know what we really need- SECRET WARS: THE BOARD GAME.

That old Marvel Super-Heroes boardgame actually had a tolerable campaign module for Secret Wars. I ran it for my first rpg group, and it was okay fun. My players pretty much followed along the storyline as published, except somehow Captain America became Captain Galactica, the new herald of Galactus.

Barnes is right on there. Kirby is the shit. Out of the young new talent I really liked this one guy, Seth fisher I think his name was. He did a couple of really interesting but not great comics, had fantastic potential, then died. Most new comic art looks like cheesy magazine covers (greg land anyone?). But I do like a few others as well, Chris Ware has a very cool (if pretentious style), Kevin Oneil is pretty interesting with his modernized Victorian grotesque style and I like what Dave Sim has been doing in his new comic Glamourpuss.

As far as DC vs. Marvel is concerned I'll always vote DC because of their Vertigo imprint.

Michael Barnes wrote:

Is there anyone here who _won't_ dub either Kirby or Ditko as the greatest artist in comics? I'm a Kirby man myself- his stuff is still the gold standard as far as I'm concerned.

No one with taste, anyway.

The thing about Kirby and Ditko, though, is that they were more than just illustrators. They had powerful, expressive, and idiosyncratic drawing styles, sure. But both of them were prolific, and they possessed prodigious imaginations. Kirby in particular was a non-stop idea factory. Ditko and Kirby created a huge proportion of all of the significant superhero concepts and characters, sometimes in collaboration with Stan, sometimes not. And I'm not just talking about Marvel. Ditko created a raft of Charlton characters (and, indirectly, the Watchmen). Kirby dreamed up a massive chunk of the DC pantheon. Kirby, with Joe Simon, invented "love comics" and other whole genres.

It's unfair to compare anyone whose job description is "comics pencil artist" to Kirby or Ditko. Those two guys are on a completely different level from everyone else. They didn't just make drawings. They made damn near everything that's memorable in American comics.